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Jim Wise: This is Jim Wise with the Durham Public Library. It's August the 7th, 2012, and we are at the UDI offices talking to Mayor Bill Bell. Mayor Bell, good morning. Bill Bell: Ah, good morning, Jim. Thanks for coming out. JW: My pleasure. Thanks for your time. You came to Durham as an engineer with IBM. I believe that was in 1968. BB: 1968.

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JW: You have held elected office all but two years since 1972. BB: That's correct. JW: Did you have political interests or leads as you were coming up to Durham? BB: None whatsoever. I came to Durham, and I’ve said this several times, I came to Durham solely with the idea of making my career at IBM. I didn't anticipate that I would be here that long because back then the culture of IBM is that you if you moved up in the corporation, you typically moved to different locations. So, I came in '68 and assumed probably six to eight years at the most I'd be here before moving somewhere else.

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JW: What about politics? Were you involved in student politics at Howard or...? BB: No, in fact, I got involved politically, probably, during the time that I came here to Durham, and I had some friends that worked at IBM. Two in particular—Willie Lovett, who was my next door neighbor, and another guy by the name of Gene Hampton, Eugene Hampton. And, in fact, Gene was running for the city council, and I recall that I helped pass out literature and those type things. In fact, during the interim, when our home was being built, my family and I for awhile stayed with Gene and his family. But, that was pretty much my introduction to politics. I didn't think too much of it. I was doing it as a courtesy, helping a friend out. What got me involved was later—in '72, I guess—’71, '72. I was president of the homeowners association in Emory Woods—that was the community I was living in, and there was a zoning matter that was proposed next to our development. And, being the president of the homeowners association, the homeowners were against the rezoning, and as a result, I had to sort of argue the case for the various parties. At that time, Emory Woods was outside the city limits, and the property that was being rezoned was outside the city also. So the whole process was from the Planning Commission up to the Board of County Commissioners. And in fact, some of our neighbors in Emory Woods were owners of the properties being rezoned [such as] Dr. Moore, Don Moore—Don’s deceased now. And I called up Mickey…Mickey Michaux lived in Emory Woods. It was his father, if I recall who was a part of the rezoning effort also. So that made it a little contentious to a certain extent because you had neighbors that were in support and you had homeowners that were against it. But to make a long story short, it took us about a year to go through the [zoning] process, the planning board up to the county commissioners, and we lost. When I say we, we the homeowners lost. The rezoning was granted. But during that time, I began to get a bit more appreciation for the community, and the electoral process, and governing bodies. And, I'd also gotten involved with the PTA because our son at that time was going to Pearsontown Elementary School, and I had gotten involved in some other community-type efforts. So, after we lost, I said, well, maybe I can join them by running for the Board of County Commissioners. And it helped that I was young enough and probably naive enough to go ahead and take that stab [at running], and, fortunately, we were successful. So I got elected in '72. Things just moved on from there. JW: Did you have a district in the county commissioners then or was it all-- BB: No, it was the county-at-large. It was all at-large.

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JW: At-large? Still then. BB: All at-large.…I don’t know what happened at that time, but up until that time, there had only been one African American on the Board of County Commissioners, you know. That was Asa Spaulding. And when I ran, and Mr. Spaulding ran again,…Bill [Stauber]…was on the commission. He was the one who was defeated. So, Mr. Spaulding had to have won the primary [also, but] decided because of other business activities that he was not going to run in the general election. So when Mr. Spaulding decided not to run in the general election, the Democratic executive committee appointed Nathan Garrett to take his place, so Nathan and I were elected in the general election. And, then in '74…in ‘74 Mrs. Spaulding decided that she wanted to run, so there were three African Americans along with the other incumbents who were lined up to be running. But to make a long story short, Nathan wasn't successful. Mrs. Spaulding was, and I was. So, that was sort of how the trend went. And then after Mrs. Spaulding, if I remember correctly, when she decided not to run again [in 1984], Josephine Clement decided to run [and was elected]. And I served with Josephine and other members of the commission, so then after Josephine decided not to run, I think it was Deborah Giles and Mary Ann Black [who were elected, giving the board its first African-American majority]—I think that was the order. And, then I served up until '94 when I lost the election. And I was serving as chairman from '82 to '94. Then I lost the election in '94, and that's when the Republicans did a complete sweep pretty much. And I ran again in '96 and was elected in '96 and in ’98. [In] 2000 I decided not to run [for re-election]. I retired from IBM in '96, and then some people came and talked to me about considering the mayor's position in 2001. JW: You must have discovered that you have a taste for elective office. BB: Well, I enjoyed it. I guess one aspect about elective office, especially local, and that's the only one that's had any interest to me, is that I like to be involved in planning things and ultimately seeing them come to fruition. And that might be…my engineering part that comes out with me, and you get an opportunity to do that [plan and see projects come to fruition] at the local level. I think you do it more so at the local level than you do if you're over in Raleigh or even up in Washington. And the things you deal with, you can relate to them because…you're living every day with the issues you're dealing with…at the local level….You tend to be a part of it. So that was the interest that I had, because nobody makes you do this stuff.

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JW: Right. BB: You certainly don't do it for the money. That was my interest, has been my interest. JW: Well, what were the big issues in '72, when you first...? BB: You know what one of the big issues was? Night meetings versus day meetings. That was the thing that I pushed for [night meetings], and I guess it was sort of self-serving. And also, because I was employed full-time at IBM, which meant meeting during the day, I had to take off, etc. But, I really thought it made it a lot more accessible for the general public to be able to participate in our meetings in the evening time. So that was one of big issues. Another issue was the issue of water and sewer. Of course that was all controlled by the city, but at that time, the position that the city pretty much had taken was that if you want city water, city sewer, you became part of the city. And so there were areas that needed it but weren't able to do that [get city water and sewer]. I guess the other issue was really changing the meetings [to night meetings]. We finally did that in '82 when Becky Heron came on board. That's when we changed it. We had Mrs. Spaulding, Becky, myself [along with two other commissioners]... Who else? Mrs. Spaulding, Becky, myself, Ed Clement, and Dillard Teer—because I think Dewey and Howard Easley had gone off [the board].

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JW: In '72 as an African American how comfortable were you running county wide? BB: It really–uh-- JW: –you were known down in this area but it’s a different world up North…. BB: That really… Jim, when I think about [it], that really wasn't a big issue for me. It really wasn't. I guess, for one thing, having been in service and the jobs that I had had where I tended to be in the minority, because I worked at Martin Marietta [in Orlando, Florida]; I worked [at the US Army Signal Core Research and Development Labs] in [Monmouth] New Jersey; I worked at IBM. That really wasn't an issue. I found it more [a case of having to] sell myself [more] than anything else. I don't think we even talked about race, if I can recall.... You know how Durham is. You’ve got to get endorsements. I mean, that's very key [in getting elected]. And the Durham Committee was important, but even [getting the endorsement of] the Durham Committee wasn't a given because there were certain persons that felt—in fact, I tease Howard Clement about this over and over again. You know, I called Howard up when I was thinking about running because Howard went to Howard [University] and I went to Howard [University]. I said, well, you know, he was [an] alumni, he'd be glad to be supportive. The first thing Howard said, "Who is Bill Bell? Who knows Bill Bell?" You know, it was that type of an attitude, and I didn't ask, could I run, you know. Typically…you [would be expected to] go and talk to people like John Wheeler and Shag Stewart and sort of lay out what you’re planning on doing [before deciding to run; in other words, get their backing]. And I did none of that. So, that was probably more of an obstacle than anything else, getting through that process. But, you know, I got through it.

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JW: Well you were a new guy in town. BB: I was new. I was new. I was new, I was young. Like I said, I was naive enough to do it and go ahead and try. So, that's what happened. JW: What were your first impressions of Durham in the first years you were living here? BB: Well, Durham is interesting. I came…When I accepted the position at there were a couple [of] things. One, I knew eventually I was going to be working in the Research Triangle Park. I wasn't working there initially. My office was over at Raleigh at Six Forks—North Hills. That’s Six Forks, that's where our lab was, but I knew I was going to be working in the Park [eventually]. Before I came down I had some friends that had told me they had some friends that were here, Willie Lovett being one of them, and asked me to, you know, look him up, and I did. I had heard about Durham when I was growing up. I grew up in Winston-Salem; although I was born in Washington, I grew up in Winston. But, I'd heard about Durham, with North Carolina Mutual and Mechanics and Farmers, but I hadn't really spent any time here. I might have come here a couple times for a band concert at Central. But it was, you know, always thought to be a sort of enclave for black entrepreneurs in the area. So, I knew that my decision was [that] I was going to move to Durham. That was initially because I would be close to my job, etc., and the contacts that I had made. What I found was [that] a lot of people that were coming to [work for] IBM in particular were going to Raleigh or Cary, not Durham. And there were a couple reasons. One, they had friends. You get steered to where your friends are. And the realtors were steering [people to Raleigh and Cary, but not Durham]. But, Durham was a community that I sort of…I felt very comfortable in. I liked the fact that it was sort of a university town. It was fortunate to have two universities. And, like I said, it was close to my job, so it was a natural for me. But, I came to Durham, and I saw a different part of Durham, too, because I came to Durham in April [1968]. It was the week that Dr. Martin Luther King was assassinated.

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JW: Wow. BB: And, I remember that there was a curfew on the town. In fact, my relatives—my family was really up in Winston-Salem because that's when…I was trying to get settled [in the job at IBM], and I remember the curfew terms being—get in and out [of the city]. Well, what struck me was that because of the leadership in the community and these communications [among the Durham leadership]…, you didn't have the [level and] type of uproar in Durham that you had in other cities, you know, the rioting, the burning, and that kind of stuff. And I credited that to the leadership in Durham to be sort of keeping a lid on things, which, again, was sort of impressive. JW: What… In your time on the county commissioners, I guess one thing you'll always be remembered for is the school merger. Is that the most difficult thing or issue that you tackled politically in your career? BB: Yeah, I'd say it was. It was, because it got to be very emotional. We were talking about change, and find people aren't very comfortable making changes when they're used to certain things. Yeah, that was probably the most difficult part. I got to see a side of Durham that, an ugly side of Durham, that wasn't so prevalent before that in terms of personal attacks and those type things.

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JW: Why did you decide that that was something that had to get done and the time had come for it? You know, it had been sort of on the table for a long time, and no one wanted to touch it. BB: I think it was one of the things that was holding Durham back to a certain extent in terms of being able to grow and to attract newcomers into the area, and they [newcomers] were moving into the Triangle area and having to make a choice as to what community they wanted to live in. And, typically, if you've got families that have children,…the thing they look for [is the caliber of] the school system, and what I discovered was that there was a lot of steering [families to live in the county school district and not in the inner city district] even within the [Durham] real estate community, that even if you came to Durham, [they would say that] you didn't want to live within the city school district. You wanted to live, you know, outside the city school district so you could go to the county school system, and the way the system had been designed—the school system—the city schools could not grow. It was that city-in—city-out doughnut hole-type thing. [The city system was like a doughnut hole in Durham County.] From a county commissioner's perspective, we were providing the local funds for [both] the school system[s], and [as chairman of the county commissioners] I could very easily see [the budget strategies the county school system used] as we went through the budget years. What would happen is that inevitably the county schools would wait until the city schools had presented their budget because the funding was done on a per-student basis. So, what you would find is the city school system, which had more needs to a certain extent, their needs amounted to a higher per-pupil expenditure than the county. So, for example, if the city school system came in, and it looked like they were going to be getting a budget of about $2000, excuse me, $2000 per student. Well, the county schools could have easily, probably, operated at maybe $1500 per student, but they knew that if the city got $2000, they would get $2000. So, they wait and see [and set their per pupil expenditure according to what the city system did. The number of county school students was almost twice the number of city school students]. So, what it was really straining was the total county budget by having these two school systems and trying to provide equity funding [equal per pupil funding in addition to other capital needs]. It was getting to be a financial burden. So, it was two reasons: it was financially and also the whole concept of two school systems not being able to attract the same types of families. I could see it in the business community that it was hard for them to say, let's fund this school, provide funding, you know, whatever it might have been, support for this system and not do it for the other because you had these two systems there.…And then the fact is the city schools…were almost about to be taken over by the state because of their poor performance. So, ultimately, if we'd kept going in the direction that we were going in, we couldn't afford it [financially] from the county's standpoint. The state was thinking about threatening to take...over the city school system anyway. So, it was an opportunity for us to do something on our own. But, I really didn't...the approach really wasn't to go in to directly merge the systems. The approach that I used was [to ask], are there ways that we can do things jointly, together? So, we put together this task force that tried to be representative of various civic organizations, business organizations across the county, and their charge really was, how can we more efficiently run the two school systems? Are there some things we can merge? And do that way. But, in the back of my mind, I was hoping that they [the task force] would really see what the problem was [that the two separate systems were not working well for the county as a whole], and as they got into it, they did. And they were the ones that changed their name to the Merger Issues Task Force, and that got the ball rolling. JW: Sounds like you brought an engineer's perspective to the problem. BB: Probably so, probably so. I think my training as an engineer and at IBM sort of helped me to at least logically be aware of trying to address problems.

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JW: It comes across that way. You think like an engineer. BB: You know, one of the things we do [as engineers] is, at least when we design a system, we always do what we call worst-case design, and that is, design to the extremes. You hope they don't happen, but you design to the extremes to see if it [the system] can work. And, that's what I tend to do here. Now, Tom [Bonfield, city manager] and them [his staff] will tell you that whenever they talk to me [about new proposals or how to do something in a different way], they find that I ask what's proposed and…what you think is going to happen. But what if it doesn’t happen? What's our plan if things go sour? So…. JW: What led you into engineering? You said you grew up in Winston-Salem. BB: That was a fluke, too.

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JW: Really? BB: Yeah, that was a fluke, too. I was born in Washington, DC, but my parents divorced and I moved to Winston-Salem when I was five to live with my mother's parents, my grandparents. They're the ones that actually raised me. My mother stayed [lived] in Washington. My father stayed [lived] in Washington. But, when I was in high school, I guess, going into my senior year, I wanted to go fly airplanes [after I graduated]. I wanted to join the Air Force. That's what I wanted to do. And, I graduated when I was sixteen, and my parents said that they were not going to sign for me to go into the service.…My grandparents—they had six kids—five daughters and a son, and the son got killed in World War II by the Japanese. [That weighed heavily on my grandparents and they did not want a repeat of what happened to their only son, who, by the way, was 15 years old when he signed to go in the Navy.] So, fortunately, I had an assistant [high school] principal, a math teacher, who thought I was pretty good at math, and what he said is that you ought to go to school to study engineering. You ought to go to Howard [University]. Howard is where he went to school. I hadn’t the slightest idea what an engineer was because I grew up in Winston-Salem. It was a segregated school system. The people that I saw that were professionals were doctors, lawyers, teachers, ministers, but no engineers or scientists, anything like that. So I hadn't the slightest idea what an engineer did, but that's how I got into it. My parents wouldn't let me go into service. This guy thought well enough of me that he suggested Howard, so I went to Howard. JW: You enjoyed it enough that you went on to NYU. BB: Yeah, well, I didn't really get an appreciation for it really until my junior year. My first few years at Howard, I did absolutely nothing. I was young, socializing, partying. I didn't wake up until my junior year. Senior year I picked up on what I was really supposed to be there for. But, after I did that…I was in ROTC, so I got a commission in the army as a second lieutenant. And my first job out of Howard was at Martin Marietta in Orlando, Florida, but I didn't stay there very long because I got called up in the service. And I went to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey, and fortunately, I worked in a research and development lab there. And when I got out, I just stayed on as a civilian in the same job. I went to grad school at NYU [and graduated with an MS in electrical engineering]. When a friend said…IBM [had a division in Durham, North Carolina], that brought me here.

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JW: It must have been very attractive to go to work for IBM in those days. BB: Yeah, because I can-- JW: As an engineer. BB: I can recall…I can recall that IBM didn't start recruiting at my school until, I think, my senior year and my junior year. And all this stuff was about timing. I mean, I got a job at Martin Marietta. Not that I wasn't qualified for it, but it was also a time when JFK was in, they [the federal government] were doing equal opportunities [challenging companies on their equal opportunity programs]. These companies were getting military contracts, and as a result, they had to, you know, show diversity. And that played a part of it because when I went with Martin, I guess I could count on one hand the number of African-American engineers that were working at that time. And likewise at IBM, but IBM was a very prestigious company. So, you know, I was pleased to be able to get a job offer.

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JW: And you stayed with IBM until 1996. BB: Yeah.…Again, that…That was one of…[the two paths that I had chosen—the political path, and the professional path as an IBM electrical engineer.] …I worked as…I had a lot of different positions at IBM [during my career], but one of my positions was as administrative assistant [AA] to the vice president of IBM, the guy that was…[the top officer] for IBM in this area. And you got to be….Back then,...if you got appointed as an AA to a top guy like that that was, you're… you know…[they were positioning you for other things in the company]. And I…so I…as an AA, I was [close] with…the guy that was the vice president at the time,…a guy by the name of John Faircloth, who was from England, and he came here to run this site here. And [he] had others sites [that reported to him]. We had sites in Japan; in France; Kingston, New York; Manassas, Virginia; Poughkeepsie—so it meant we were traveling quite a bit. And, sometimes after the day was over, we would be in, you know, in a bar [after dinner] sitting down talking, and John asked me one night, he said…first thing he asked me is, how much money did I want to make? And I gave him some number, and he told me, he said, “That's too low. You’ve got to be thinking bigger than that. You can do better than that.” He said, “But let me tell you one thing.” He said, “Right now you're riding two horses. You're riding the local [political] horse, and you're riding the IBM horse. Sometime you’ve got to decide which horse you want to continue riding, either the IBM horse or the political horse.” And I gave that a lot of thought because when you live… When you're in the position I was in, you sort of live with these guys, you saw the lifestyles they had, the things they had to do. And it was really a 24/7-type job when you're at that level. And, I was enjoying what I was doing here [in Durham]. Being at IBM I got an opportunity to travel all over, so I was able to go to cities and, you know, take an assessment of what it was to be there. And, the more I did that, the more I appreciated Durham. And, I enjoyed what I was doing, and so I decided that I'd ride the [two] horse[s] as long as I could. And when it came time to jump, I’d make a choice. Ed [Stewart, president at UDI/CDC (UDI Community Development Corporation Inc.)] wanted me [to join his staff]. John had wanted me [to seriously continue making a career at IBM], too. When we went to Japan…because we had a lab in Fujisawa [that] reported to him,…they wanted me to take an assignment over there for about a year. And I just told them that I wasn't… I didn't want to do it. And so, I was [at that time beginning to] change horses to a certain extent. But fortunately, I was able to still have positions at IBM that allowed me to grow, to still be able to do the [outside] things I was doing here [in Durham]. And when I was getting ready to retire, I was working for Bill Kress, who was the [IBM] site general manager [John Faircloth and his successor, Mitchell Watson, who I also worked for as AA, had moved on to other positions in IBM]. [He] asked, well, what did I think I wanted to do. And I told him I wasn’t quite sure. I thought of some things, and they gave me…said, well, look, take six months [at IBM’s expense to go outside the company to explore other opportunities]…so I thought I’d go do a community service-type thing. [Bill said] then when you get ready to retire, let us know. So, I did the joint thing. I did things [was on retainer] with Duke. I worked for [John] Burness [senior vice-president at Duke] and [for the Duke University president,] Nan Keohane at that time. ...That’s when we put together the plans for [establishing a Duke-] West Durham [partnership],…and then Ed [Stewart] had asked me to do some stuff here at UDI. I did some of that, too, but I had been at UDI back in the 70s because I was president of the board for them for awhile when I was working at IBM. So ultimately I decided that I'd come [and work at UDI/CDC]…. John and them wanted me to come to Duke, and Ed wanted me to come here [to UDI/CDC]. So I decided that this [work at UDI/CDC] is more along the lines of what I enjoy doing, being involved in neighborhoods and training and development and stuff like that.

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JW: Were you on the board when UDI switched from for-profit to non-profit? BB: No, no, I came on it when it went to non-profit. When I came on [the board] it was non-profit. When they were for-profit, I wasn't on the board then. That for-profit didn't last too long. That's another thing that I can relate to easily. I was just thinking last night on this stuff, about my comments. You do what you do well, and what you don't do well you find somebody that can do it. They didn't know how to run a grocery store. They built a grocery store on a one-way street, on Mangum Street. Tried to operate it, but it wasn’t any good [they couldn’t do it successfully]. That’s why when I came on board [the UDI/CDC staff], and we did Food Lion [at Fayetteville and Pilot streets], I made it clear, you know. What we do is we build a building and try to find somebody that can operate it because we're not in the food business or the grocery business. Same thing with housing. [As a for-profit organization] they were trying to do modular housing. They did a certain amount of it, but they really couldn't do it well. But, I came on when it was a non-profit. JW: So what is your role here? If you had spare time, what would… BB: I'd close the door, and sit, and that would be it. Because that's my time, ain't it? No, we have a very small operation here. A very small operation.…Ed is president [/CEO], I'm executive vice president, the young lady that sits up front is the administrative assistant [Latora Gaddy], and we have a young lady who's part time as the financial consultant, Vivian Wan—a young Chinese girl, MBA/CPA….So, my portfolio is sort of divided up into managing the park [UDI Industrial Park] and other properties that we have outside of the park, and working on putting together grants proposals, those type things.

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JW: That keeps your hand in the planning side? BB: Yeah, yeah. That’s the part I like. JW: How did it feel to actually lose an election, in '94? BB: You know what, Jim, people might not believe it, but that was probably one of the better times in my life, because the timing of it was such that our youngest daughter was, I guess, a sophomore, freshman/sophomore, at Hillside. And, she was on the cheerleading squad, so she wasn't driving. So what it meant, either I or my wife had to, you know, provide the transportation. So I found myself, you know, going to a game, sitting there relaxing, going to some meetings that if I wanted to stay there, I stayed. If I didn't, I left. So I really didn't miss it [elective office]. I really…I really didn’t miss it. It was just relaxing. I was…I knew I was getting ready to transition at IBM within a couple years, and I still did some things. In fact, I was on…I was on the…What did we call it? The budget advisory committee for the school system. I remember Bill Wilson, myself, and a couple other people. So I sort of kept my hands in things, but it was at my pace. And, so, I really…I really didn't miss it as much I thought I was going to miss it.

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JW: But you ran again in two years. BB: But I ran again…I ran again for a couple reasons. We'd gone through [the school] merger, and I was getting rumblings that people might be trying to undo it. I had some people come talk to me about considering running again. And, I felt at least that I have an opportunity to give people a choice. If they reelect me, fine. If they didn't…[ fine also]. But that was primarily it. And so I did it. I was lucky to get reelected in '96 and again in '98, and then 2000 I decided I wasn't going to run again because I was retired from IBM and I was doing this job. JW: You didn't stay retired for very long. BB: No, no, I didn't. That was…that was probably one of my more difficult decisions politically, in terms of what was I going to do, because I really had no interest in the mayor's stuff. I never liked city council. I mean, for one, it was too large. It was thirteen members during the whole time that I was there. And I just never had a focus on it, and so when people came and talked to me about considering it, it was tough. It was tough for several reasons. One, I didn't know if I really wanted to get back into it because I…I had gotten comfortable. I knew what it was like to be out [of elective office].

00:35:29.650 - 00:39:39.740

And Nick Tennyson, who was the mayor at the time…Nick used to be one of my neighbors, and, in fact, when Nick announced that he was running again, I went to his announcement [rally]. I forget where it was…I forget where he announced, but I went to it. So that's how far I was from even thinking about it [running for the mayor’s office]. So that was another piece that I was taking into consideration. You know, he'd already announced he was running. I wouldn't say we were brothers and buddies, but we were friends. So, I…I just…weighed some of those things, and I looked at the people that were asking me to consider it and some of the issues that they were concerned about, and I said okay. JW: When you were running in 2000, what were the major issues as you saw them? BB: Well, one is how we were going to develop as a city and a community. One of the things that had occurred when I was on the county commission was this whole idea about trying to revitalize downtown, folks, you know, in the American Tobacco complex. And, at that time,…Jim [Goodmon] was talking about moving the Bulls [from Durham to someplace in the Triangle region], and he had just purchased them. And you know Jim thinks regionally, so he thought this should be a team for all the region and be someplace other than Durham. One of the companies that had really taken an interest in the city of Durham, given all the companies that we had here in the park, was Glaxo. I think Glaxo had pretty much adopted Durham [as its home city]. I remember when…when Glaxo was being established here in the Park, some guys came up to my house because the contractor wanted to know if he could bring out some people to show them the work he'd done. And he brought these guys out, and I just asked him, I said, “Why are you guys looking here?” And he said, “Because we were told the first place to look, look in Durham before you look anywhere else.” And I said all that to say that as part of the whole revitalization piece, Glaxo was going to develop and renovate the American Tobacco complex. Adam Abrams had—had the building. And the deal was that if we were successful in getting a bond referendum passed for the ball park….At that time, the ball park was going to be put on University Ford's site. You know, we were going to try to get University Ford to move somewhere else. And Glaxo would come in and redevelop the American Tobacco facility. Well, obviously the referendum didn't pass for several reasons, and I teased Jim [Goodmon] about that, too, because he took out an ad against the referendum in the paper. But it didn't pass. [I can’t say that was the primary reason for the referendum failure but, in my opinion, it contributed to its failure.] But, it was still in the back of my mind that there was really an opportunity for, you know, [a new ballpark] serving as a catalyst for what was happening [the redevelopment] downtown. Over at Brightleaf Square, Clay Hamner and them [Terry Sanford, Jr. and others] had taken it [the renovation of the facility] on…, but they did it on their own. They didn't have, you know, public-private partnerships. So that still was in the back of my mind, as something that I thought could happen. And I think had not the city [council] gone on and built the ball stadium with COPs, we'd have been further away from [the prosperity that] happened, but because the city council did do that [build the ball park]…and I think Jim [Goodmon] saw the value of it [and the potential for further development in downtown Durham], he did in time indeed want it. And I know they were having problems trying to get American Tobacco off the ground [when I became mayor]. That was one of the things I thought we could do. JW: Did you facilitate the Duke involvement?

00:39:41.220 - 00:41:15.160

BB: No, I can't take any credit for that. I think that that’s something that Duke also saw the value of, too. I guess one of the things I did learn about Duke when I was on retainer for them, doing... –how important it was for them to be a part of the city and to make contributions,…I think even [in] what we were doing [in the West End], they realized what had happened to the other universities that were in the inner city and hadn't taken care [to become involved in the community]. Yale was a good example of not looking at what was happening around them, and suddenly it was sort of ghettoized. I think they saw the value of what could happen by contributing [to the development of] downtown, but no, I didn't have anything to do with that. It was Jim [Goodmon] and them [Duke University] working…[together to move some of Duke’s offices to the American Tobacco Campus]. JW: But you did…With Duke you were involved in planning and then being involved in the planning of West End, Lyon Park. You played a part. BB: Yeah, and that was a case of trying to establish a level of trust. I mean, that wasn't an easy job because, for the first thing, you know, the community wanted to know—What did Duke want? Why are you in here? What's in it for you? And, it was something in it for Duke, too. I mean, they weren’t all that altruistic that they just wanted to do good. They realized that if they didn't do something that, you know, their surrounding community was under threat. But, yeah, Sandy and I pretty much worked on that plan. JW: Well, it seems to have paid off.

00:41:15.420 - 00:41:27.450

BB: Yeah, JW: Some fruit... BB: Yeah. Yeah, it has. JW: You emphasize downtown, I guess, revitalizing downtown, which has been talked about since the ‘50s, I guess. It seems to have finally caught on. What do you think it is that has happened in the past ten years that…the time was right for...?

00:41:27.450 - 00:44:04.800

BB: Success. Success. I mean, you know, to have a vision that Goodman had for American Tobacco Campus—it’s just a hard sell for somebody, and for….And that's why we caught so much heck in terms of trying to do the parking decks, you know. [People could not see that it was not about all of us helping a private investor with no benefit to the public. It appeared that we were only doing something to benefit the private sector, enrich the private sector.] Nobody could see the value of adding parking decks so that this place could thrive, and even in doing the public parking decks, the plan was initially for the city to build the south parking deck, the one on Blackwell [Street], and the county was going to build the one on Pettigrew Street. And as we got closer to closing the deal, for whatever reason, the county suddenly decided [almost at the last minute of the deal] that they wanted to have [construct] the deck on Blackwell. They didn't want [to construct] the one on Pettigrew Street [that they had committed to constructing]. And, at that time, Marcia Conner was the city manager, and she wanted to, you know, wanted to get in a tussle with us. I said, look, what's the cost? I mean, we’re going to spend the…same amount of dollars on Blackwell Street as we do on Pettigrew Street. Doesn't bother me. If that's going to be a deal breaker, forget about that. We'll go ahead and build one on Pettigrew Street, and let the county do the one that they did on Blackwell. So we got past that, but I think the fact that…the ball park was successful, and then you get Diamond View, and then you get the American Tobacco Campus, and that coupled with the fact that Brightleaf Square had already done its thing. And even with American Tobacco coming up, I think that was…sort of the catalyst for Brightleaf Square to really do the renovations that they did….I think it's…I think that's the success. I think it's the timing of it. Obviously, the timing that we had for doing the ball park [referendum] wasn't the best. The referendum failed, but if I remember correctly, the economy started going down also in '94. JW: Right. BB: But, I think in…when we got…back around the economy was going back up, and we were able to be successful in the things we were doing. JW: What about the part of downtown inside the loop? The hotel incentive was approved last night, so how do you feel about that and the prospects for that?

00:44:13.880 - 00:45:24.740

BB: I really…I really think that it's going to be a winner, and you heard Bill Kalkoff say that already ...You know, to me, doing that kind of development's almost like franchising, doing a McDonald's. McDonald's will go out and scout a site. They put it on the corner. Pretty soon you see a Burger King or something somewhere else [in the same vicinity]. Same thing with drugstores. CVS will put something up. And then they've done the work, but then you find somebody else coming in to, you know, go on building it [another drugstore]. I think the same thing is happening downtown. I think people are seeing that for one, the restaurants got to be a [good] business, and then you see more and more of them come up. Then you get a hotel that looks like it's going to move in...But right now….You know where Mutual Savings building was [on Chapel Hill Street]? JW: Yeah. BB: They're talking about converting that to a hotel. That's something for the books, huh? So, I think success sort of builds on that. You get somebody go in and break the ice and do the homework, somebody's coming behind. JW: You also picked up as a major emphasis of the past few years, revitalizing neighborhoods in the… around the…around downtown, and in particular the former Rolling Hills, the south side. What…Why did you pick that particular area to devote so much of your…your interest?

00:45:49.300 - 00:46:51.400

BB: A couple reasons. I felt all along that you can't continue to invest in downtown and not somehow reach out beyond downtown. And I say it over [and over] again, but I do believe that if we have strong neighborhoods, strong communities, then you have a strong city. The Rolling Hills site had a particular interest to me because when I was on the Board of County Commissioners, I used to sit at a table and I could look out from the commissioner's chair and just look at that saying, “[What if that site was] ours?” That was sort of prime property in Durham, particularly in the downtown area, and I just think it had the potential for, you know, becoming something better than what it was. I think what happened is the guy who originally…[built Rolling Hills], I think he had big plans, but I think he was sort of ahead of his time, too. And I know him because he was a classmate of mine at Howard, Marshall Isler—he was the guy that developed it. He thought that [it] could be market-rate [housing]—a very diverse community, but again, his timing, in my opinion, was off. I really don’t think he had the marketing piece that was needed to go along with that [the development], and as a result, it just…it just didn’t work out. But it was still to me, it was this property that could offer a lot more than what it was. And, then again, I look at that as almost what we were doing in downtown. We made a big investment downtown, so what you want to do is try to make sure the edges [of downtown] are successful also, almost like with Duke, the thing with Duke. You got Duke, and then you look in the West End, you got these communities around. You somehow have got to help support them and sustain them. So that’s, that’s why I really, you know, to me…it has been pretty important for the next community piece [--to help in revitalizing our inner-city communities]. Plus, I meant, my focus was on Rolling Hills as a site, but when we got into it and McCormick Baron [Salazar, the present developers] came in, they said it’s too small alone for us to do that [redevelop the site]. Plus you got, they said, you have got to look at what’s surrounding [it]. And when you look at what’s surrounding, you’ve got Southside and Roxboro [Street]. So, you know, that’s how those pieces became a part of, you know, the whole project….Here again, you’re getting into [revitalizing] the [inner-city] community, and people can see that you just aren’t focusing on downtown. You are now trying to address some of their needs, and the same thing's happening over in Northeast Central Durham. I think what the city had done too much in the past was to do these onesie- twosie- type renovations…it was almost like taking a rotten apple and putting it in a barrel of good apples. If it stays there long enough, all the other apples start to rot. So, that’s why, for me, you did it [development]…a block at a time rather than a house at a time. That’s why I thought Barnes Avenue was a good opportunity to do that [type of revitalization]. You had units that people were going in and trying to fix up, renovate [single houses], but you still had illegal activities going on [in the neighborhood]. Plus, it [Barnes Avenue] was sitting right next to the Eastway Elementary School. I can remember when I was on the Board of County Commissioners, and I think Beverly Washington Jones was on the school board at the time, and they were catching a little flack for even thinking about putting Eastway Elementary School up because you had Few Gardens [at that time the city’s oldest public housing project] on one side and Barnes Avenue on the other side. Why are you going to do that? [Why are you going to build an elementary school in that type of environment?] My position was that, I think that [the school] could be a catalyst for change. If you put the school there then it might prompt, you know, better things to happen around it. So, that was another reason why I felt Barnes Avenue was a good place to start also and over in Northeast Central Durham [and Southwest Central Durham]. But just do it [revitalization] on a larger scale than they’d been doing before. JW: Northeast central Durham is this huge area. BB: Yeah. JW: I mean it’s… There’s a lot left to be done there.

00:46:51.400 - 00:47:30.620

BB: Yeah, there is. But, Jim, I think that...I was at a function last week over on Angier Avenue next to Joe Bushfan’s Place, a place called Tootie’s. And, they’re talking about…They have a thing, “Building a Better Block,” and to see the community come in and want to take ownership of how their community is going to grow and the things that they can do, those are the type things I think can move Northeast Central Durham along because, to me, you don’t go in telling people what they need to do. You go and try to find out what they need, what would they like to see happen, and then sort of work together to see if you can make that dream come true. You can’t always, but it at least gives you sort of a building block to start with. But I think it’s efforts like that. When they finished, what they did [when I was visiting] is they went out and walked the block, and they broke up into teams. And people were assigned different tasks, you know. I remember them saying if you think you need a bus stop, where would you have a bus stop if you were on this block? Where would you have it? And, eventually they’re going to come up with a plan, but it’s the community doing that. The city’s participating. You have city help in there. It’s really come out of Constance Stancil’s neighborhood Improvement Services [a city department]. Some of her staff were there, and some of the public were there. But it’s those types of efforts that I think will make the changes. But again, it doesn’t happen overnight, but you’ve got to…The stuff we did for Holton [Middle School, now renovated into Holton Resource Center], that’s made a tremendous difference in that community. You can just see the housing around it. Even on Angier Avenue, that’s been one of the gateways [we have five major gateways into the city] that the administration has chosen, to....start with [renovating the streetscape, similar to what was done in downtown Durham]. But I can see a difference in Angier Avenue driving from Alston Avenue back up to Driver [Street] in terms of houses, in terms of less loitering, people on the streets, and stuff like that. And the people tell you there’s a [positive] difference. JW: Well, what’s fun about being mayor? BB: The fun part is when you can see [that] what you’re doing is making a difference, whether it’s in the city or whether it’s in somebody’s life. That’s the fun part. JW: What are the difficulties?

00:47:30.620 - 00:47:30.630

BB: Not being able to do those things [that in my opinion need to be done].… JW: Yeah. BB: …People ask me what’s different in being on the Board of County Commissioners and being the mayor of the city, especially since I chaired the Board of County Commissioners. And, what I find is that, for whatever reason, people have their perception of what the mayor is, not that that’s what it is [it’s not necessarily what they think it is]. But they just have…So everything comes right into your office, because they think you can fix it. And, when I was on the Board of County Commissioners, there was more of a buffer in the sense that although we had a bigger budget, we dealt with schools, social services, and mental health, all the people-type stuff, each one of those agencies had their own governing board. Mental Health has its board. Social Services has its board. The school [system] has its board. So, I got less of that [the problems] coming directly to me as chairman of the county commissioners, whereas here, everything comes in, whether it’s—I got a water bill problem, the garbage didn’t get picked up, streetlight’s not working, police didn’t treat me right. You know, all that kind of stuff comes in. And, it’s where you can help, that’s the good part, is where you can help.…The bad part is even though you want to, [you can’t help], you know. The biggest thing about…like jobs, you know. I don’t know how many times every day I get somebody stop me or say something about a job. Got a letter yesterday evening from some lady who was moving here from Maryland, I think it was Maryland, yeah. She was on a [housing] voucher system up there. She thought she could get a voucher transferred down here because she wanted to move down here to Durham. She vacated her apartment in Maryland before she really had to, but she did do it. She came down here and she’s sort of getting the runaround as to whether she can or not [get a housing voucher]. My response is to send something to the city manager, send her to Steve (City Councilman Steve Schewel serves as the liaison to the Durham housing Authority)….I said, look, can you be of assistance? But, she thinks the mayor can fix that problem. You know, I mean…I…You can fix... You get a lot of that, a lot of that. And even though you might want to or you have the proclivity to try to do it, you know there are certain limitations. That’s the down side of it. JW: You had a…The school merger was a particularly big, I guess, difficult issue to handle when you were chairman of the county commissioners. Was there anything remotely equivalent to that since you were mayor?

00:47:30.630 - 00:48:02.440

BB: No, not…not equivalent, but I can tell you, doing [redeveloping] Barnes Avenue and Rolling Hills hasn’t been an easy piece. I mean, when I look at the fact that I really started looking at both of those projects not too long after I became mayor, at the same time we started looking at the American Tobacco complex, and American Tobacco’s been finished what? five years almost. We’re just now breaking ground on Rolling Hills. We just completed Barnes Avenue [it was renamed by the neighborhood “East Way Village”] about two or three years ago. And, the difficulty is, you’re dealing more directly with the people. Downtown, as I said, you know, doing American Tobacco [Campus], if we had issues, you iron it out between Mike Hill and Jim Goodman. And that was it. On Barnes Avenue you’ve got to fight all the property owners and then all the people that don’t even live there. They want to come in and have a buy-in to what’s going on. And the same thing with Rolling Hills. I mean, I…We had all kinds of obstacles that people were trying to throw up in trying to get that done. Some had some validity, but most of them were just trying to be roadblocks. So that’s…they’re…They’re the difficult pieces. It’s nothing like the school merger because the school merger was a county-wide thing [and] touched all types of people. JW: Did you also act with some organizations and mayors? I noticed that you are…One that you’re involved with is against…Mayors against Guns. BB: Illegal guns, yeah. JW: Yeah. What…

00:48:02.440 - 00:48:23.260

BB: That’s frustrating. JW: Yes. BB: It is. It is frustrating. I mean, one of the things that all the city managers know since I’ve been here is that if there’s a homicide in Durham, I want to know about it. I mean, I don’t want to pick up the newspaper. I want to already know about it. So as soon as they find out, they know to call me [no matter the time]. And , I was telling Tom [Bonfield]…He called me this morning, but I’d [already] seen it on TV about the latest homicide that we had over on Wabash Street. And…But then you look at what happened in Milwaukee, well, not Milwaukee, outside—Wisconsin. You never know. That’s the piece that’s the most difficult for me. It’s something that you’d like to be able to control. You’d like to be able to say, put all the guns down; stop all this stuff. But you know that can’t happen, so you try to do these other things you're trying to do to try to make a difference. Sometimes you feel that it’s making a difference, but then you hear what I heard in the last week. We’ve had two homicides. It’s just discouraging. Matter of fact, I was telling Tom [Bonfield], and…We had at that time, thirteen homicides, and I said that that’s almost two per month. And at the rate we’re going, we’re going to end up with about twenty-three homicides if we keep up that rate. Tom said, “Well, you know we don’t count it that way.” I said, “I know you don’t count it that way.” I said, but if we look at trends [it appears we are headed in that direction]. And so, in August we’ve had two homicides. I’m hoping we don’t have any more, but those are the disheartening things, you know, that you do. You try to…And it seems to be senseless, too. I mean, just seems to be senseless, and it’s… As an African American, it’s even more disheartening because most of it’s black-on-black [homicides]. Most is black-on-black. Most of it are young kids, twenty five or younger, males. That’s…That’s where I am. I guess the other piece that I’m hoping we’re going to be able to get off the ground is this IBM Smarter City stuff [program] that we’ve been working on and trying to pull it together,…trying to build [a connection] for young people in our community, hoping to get them on a different path [that is positive and constructive for their future development]. JW: What…You’re…You’ve been going to Washington a good bit it seems like with…ever since Obama got elected, so do you have a…are you playing an active role in the Democratic Party in the state or national scenes or trying to…?

00:48:46.820 - 00:48:48.990

BB: I guess more…more local and state-wide. I’m not as…I’m not as involved in this campaign as I was in ’08. And I think it’s primarily my choice and the timing of it also. But I’m involved. I get calls from the campaign, you know, and things are going on, things they want me to help out with. Same thing coming from the White House. But it’s just a…I just don’t have the level of involvement this year that I had in ’08. JW: Does it help…Has it helped you as a Democratic mayor to have a Democratic president? Does it make much difference? BB: I think it has. It’s given me access to, you know, certain people I normally wouldn’t have access to, I don't think. I don’t know how many times I’ve been to the White House. I think when…I was there when Clinton was there, and maybe once when Carter was there, maybe twice. When Bush was there, maybe once. I’ve been I don’t know how many times. I was supposed to have been up there last Thursday for an announcement, but because we were doing the thing here at Holton, I couldn’t get up there. JW: Puts another perspective on your career, on your longevity in politics, how many presidents you’ve seen come and go.

00:49:18.800 - 00:49:27.780

BB: I hadn’t even thought about that. JW: Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush one…. BB: Yeah, I hadn’t even thought about that. JW: Well, what…When you do finally retire from politics, what do you hope to be remembered for, or what do you hope to look back on as something you feel good about?

00:49:56.440 - 00:50:02.860

BB: Jim, I honestly don’t think about that. I really don’t; I really don’t. That’s something that people, you know, you guys decide what that is. That’s never driven me; it never has. What’s driven me is the opportunity to make things happen. That’s been my driving point. I like to see things, like to see…[things come to fruition]. I can remember when I was on the Board of County Commissioners. And I may have said this to you, too, at some point. I remember just thinking when Terry Sanford, Sr., Terry Jr., Clay Hamner, Ken Spaulding came out to my house and laid their plans out for Treyburn, what they were trying to do. And, to me, it was…something that was needed because at that time, we really didn’t have that quality of housing developments in the community, and…But, you know, working with that and seeing that come to fruition, through all the stuff we had to go through in terms of watershed protection, the Jim Clarks, and all that stuff. When you see, eventually, that stuff done and you know you’ve somehow been a part of seeing some changes, that’s the satisfaction I get. JW: As I recall, Treyburn was a pretty difficult… BB: Very difficult. JW: …project to get through....

00:50:02.870 - 00:50:16.860

BB: Very, very, very difficult. JW: It was a difficult political process. BB: And, you know, when the whole issue about watershed protection really goes to the top… as a concern when a development is being considered near a watershed as was the situation with Treyburn]. I mean, you know, we’ve had some other things that have come through here that…I remember when they were talking about doing Falls Lake. I remember when they were talking about doing Jordan Lake. When they were talking about putting in the…What was that? I can’t even thing of the name right, shoot. See if I can try to remember. Doing the underground tunnel. JW: Oh, super collider.

00:50:47.520 - 00:51:06.000

BB: Super collider, yeah. Yeah. But, you see something like Treyburn happen, and you know you’ve sort of been involved in it. That’s the satisfaction that I get, and there were things that, you know, didn’t all…everything hasn’t been all roses. You know, some things haven’t worked out the way you’d necessarily like them to. That’s part of it. JW: What, for example, has not worked out the way you would have liked it to? BB: Well, one little housing development they were doing up in…--what do they call it–Eagles Village, off of Alston Avenue, over in that area. That didn’t work out. JW: How is different…How is Durham different now, in your perspective? You’ve lived here for forty-four years.

00:51:06.000 - 00:51:27.060

BB: I think it’s really gotten to be a more progressive community. I think appreciation for the arts has really risen, and I say arts in all forms, not just performing arts, you know—viewing arts. I think our community has…the diversity has helped us, and you probably don’t appreciate it until you leave this town. That we’ve seen. I really think that Durham has a fairly transparent level of government. You know, they used to joke when I first went on the Board of County Commissioners that the way you made decisions, Ed Clement [a funeral home director] and Howard Easley and Dewey Scarborough would get in a hearse and would ride around and decide. And Swindell [Ed Swindell, the Durham county manager at the time], because Swindell was really…[an important person]….I think we got…I think it’s a lot more transparent. In a way it sort of holds us back a little bit and maybe moving things forward, but I think that’s good. As much as I complained about how long it took to do a Barnes Avenue or Rolling Hills, there is some validity to letting people get out and air their grievances. At least they can’t say they haven’t been heard. Just because we don’t necessarily do what they want, at least they get an opportunity to do that [be heard]. I think its [Durham’s] reputation has changed more for the better, in a positive way, particularly in the Triangle area. I think people tend to view Durham a little bit more positive now than they did maybe ten years ago, and I think it’s primarily due to the fact that they had reasons to come here, to see the city, rather than just read about it. And, once here, they get a different impression of it. Even people that live in Durham, I’ve heard them say they’ve been downtown for the first time, and they were amazed at the transformation and such. I was at…I was back out in our community, Emory Woods, a couple Saturdays ago. I don’t live there now, but the kids who grew up there wanted to have sort of a reunion. And, so they invited me to, you know, come out there. And some of them had moved away, but they came back to town. But, to just hear them talk about the difference in Durham now versus when they were growing up, it’s a very positive feeling they have for it. JW: Are your kids still in the area? BB: Yeah, I have…Well, I have…My wife and I have four children between us, and three of them are here. And my oldest son and his wife are in Charlotte, but we have three daughters that are here. My youngest daughter is…She and her husband live five minutes from us. They have two kids, and she’s going on her third year in the doctoral program over at Carolina, [majoring in] psychology. [Her] husband works at the recreation department for the city. My middle daughter’s got a dance studio down in Renaissance Center across from Southpoint, and my oldest daughter works up at Duke. She has this thing for working with AIDS patients. She’s got a thing for [helping persons with] HIV. That’s just her calling. I try to be of assistance to her when I can, whenever she ask for information on community resources for her clients, etc. Anyway, she’s over at Duke, doing that kind of work, which she really enjoys and doesn’t think of it as work. JW: Do any of them have an interest in politics?

00:51:27.060 - 00:51:27.070

BB: Nah. JW: Following in your footsteps? BB: No. My kids could care less about what I do [politically]. Unless it’s something they think I might be going to that they want to go to. None of them showed any interest in it [becoming involved politically as an elected official]. JW: Plus you gave them a good example of what’s involved.

00:51:36.140 - 00:51:56.180

BB: I guess so, but .…No, that’d really be a surprise if one of them got involved politically, you know. JW: Well, what has surprised you about…suppose if you were thinking of your future back in ‘70 and had been told that you were going to be a mayor and a county commissioner? BB: That’s…That’s the biggest surprise. I guess in the back of my mind maybe I’ve…maybe it’s been there because I knew when I grew up in Winston, my grandparents, they let me choose the church that I wanted to go to, and there was a Methodist church right up the street from my home, and I chose to go there, and my grandparents went to St. Paul's Methodist Church. But they just wanted me to go to church, so I go to Sunday school and go to church. And, the kids in the neighborhoods went there, too. But the minister at that time was a guy by the name of Reverend William Crawford, and he was the first black city alderman in Winston-Salem. And, this was…back in the ‘40s, ‘50s, somewhere along in there. I admired him because he was the minister…but also because of what he did. But that was…that was the extent of it, but you know what, when I think back about it sometimes, I just wonder if that had some kind of play on what my interest is in politics. But, I remember, Bill Crawford was the first black alderman in Winston, and he was…he was my minister. JW: Did you get involved at all in the civil rights movement in the ‘60s?

00:51:56.180 - 00:52:32.620

BB: Tangentially. Because the timing of that for me was…I finished Howard in ’61, and so I…when I finished, as I said, I went to work and then got called up in service. And so, I was sort of missing some of that. I remember Stokely Carmichael coming on Howard’s campus one or two times whenever I was there, but I was busy trying to get out of school. I hadn’t figured out what I was supposed to be yet. JW: I think you were like a lot of college students. BB: Yeah. I don’t know. I just…I look back and say I’ve been fortunate because I could have easily gone another way. Easily gone the other way. JW: No regrets or disappointments?

00:52:32.620 - 00:52:32.630

BB: No, no, not really. I think Durham as a community has been good to both me and my family. I think I’ve had opportunities that I can’t say I wouldn’t have had other places, but I wasn’t other places. I was here. And, I was able to take advantage of them and be accepted being able to do those things. I tell my wife I used to compare… used to compare Durham to Winston-Salem because I grew up in Winston. The two cities are similar in the sense that they were driven by tobacco. Both had universities—black, white—Winston-Salem State, Wake Forest. And, I used to… I still have one aunt who lives there, so I go back occasionally to see her. But, there was a time I thought Winston was ahead of Durham, and now I’m convinced Durham’s ahead of Winston in terms of the way it’s grown, what it has to offer, and it’s just, in general, really a [great] community. I know I used to go…I have a little… Funny thing is, I like barbeque, and I like hot dogs, stuff like that. I was in Winston. I was trying to find a good hot dog. I had to go all over town to try to find one. I was telling my wife, you know, I can leave my house here, and I can be almost anyplace to get a decent meal without a lot of hassle to get there traffic wise, and stuff like that. So, it’s just different. I tease Allen Joines, he’s the mayor of Winston, because he and I had this running thing about who’s fifth and who’s fourth [the fourth versus fifth largest city in North Carolina] and that type of stuff. We just got ahead of them with the latest census count. I was telling Allen, the way they got ahead of us is that they did annexation, and we haven’t done any annexation. And, now they’ve moved the General Assembly rules [the General Assembly has changed the involuntary annexation rules], that’s not going to be quite an easy task for cities to grow now by annexing the areas like they have in the past. [I tell him that we have grown because people are moving to Durham, not being annexed into Durham.] JW: Is that going to be a…a handicap? BB: There’s one… There’s one wrinkle in the legislation that is a handicap for us right now, and we just discovered it after the General Assembly passed this last annexation bill. And, the first one they passed they excluded doughnut holes. In other words, you know, places that are…[surrounded by the city limits but not a part of the city limits]. You know doughnut holes? JW: Yes.

00:52:39.600 - 00:53:33.560

BB: They excluded those. This latest piece included them, so that’s something we’re going to try to work on to get…to get changed, hopefully, because I understand that they didn’t intend it that way. I don’t know whether they did or not. But we had some doughnut holes that Tom [Bonfield] was planning on bringing forth to annex, and we’ve had to hold off on that. In terms of Durham’s growth, I don’t think it’s going to be a hindrance to us. The biggest issue we have now, of course, we’ll see how it works out once we get the administration’s recommendations as to how we handle annexation and water and sewage issues. It’s… Hopefully we’ll get it sometime in September/October. I think people [will] still want to…[move or live in Durham if we continue to develop as we have]. The areas that potentially… would be annexed I think will go on and be annexed because they’re going to want the water and sewer that we can provide to allow them to do it. So, I don’t think it’s going to be a hindrance. There aren’t any areas out there that I can think of, right now, that we want to go out and voluntarily annex. You know. JW: You still have some hard feelings, in Parkwood, about that. People mention it. BB: Well, I didn’t talk about that, but that’s another interesting part of my coming to Durham. When I told you I wanted to live…I made the decision to live in Durham. There weren’t a lot of communities that had been built like they did over in Raleigh like North Hills where they had, you know, spec housing. So the closest development for me was really Parkwood. And, at that time, the community had to have a sort of a meeting to try to figure out how they were going to accept this black couple that wanted to move into Parkwood. And, ultimately I decided I just didn’t want to move there. It wasn’t a problem for me because I was at work, but my wife would have been home, and, I just didn’t want to go through that hassle, so I ended up waiting and building in Emory Woods. But the irony is, that I…where I live now is right next to Parkwood. JW: Yeah.

00:53:33.560 - 00:53:49.980

BB: Right next to Parkwood, so, that’s my neighborhood. JW: So you’re still living in Emory Woods? BB: No. No. I said where I live now is next to Parkwood. I live in Hunter Woods, which is right next to Parkwood—it’s associated with Parkwood. But I mean, I just think, how ironic that is that that was the neighborhood that had to have a community meeting to decide how they were going to accept this young black couple that was [considering] moving in. JW: That’s one thing that has changed for the better.

00:53:49.980 - 00:53:58.060

BB: Yup, yup. JW: There wouldn't be any hassle now about you living where you want to. BB: No, that’s…that’s a big change, too. I…You know, I don’t hear about housing discrimination. I’m not saying it’s not there, but if I think about things that come across my desk, that’s not one of them. I don’t get anybody complaining about that, saying that they’ve been redlined or something like that. JW: Anything else you would like to put on the record for posterity?

00:54:13.800 - 00:54:15.160

BB: Well, I just think it’s…I think Durham is really one of the more progressive cities, especially in the South. I think the fact that…I think we’re situated well in terms of where we’re located within the state— easy access to the ocean, easy access to the mountains. We’ve got a good transportation network, good airport, looks like we’re getting a rail line that comes in, got good water. It’s green. I think it’s a desirable community. JW: Well, thank you for your time.