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Okay, so hello, this is Julianne Patterson with Preservation Durham. This interview is one in a series of interviews that Preservation Durham is conducting with Durham County's Division of Open Spaces to document the history and experiences of life and farming in rural Durham County to mark 25 years of protected farmland in Durham County. Today is Tuesday, June 30, 2026, and the time is 2:43 p.m. This interview is being conducted in person at 12712 Hampton Road, Rougemont, Durham County, North Carolina. This interview is being recorded.

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It will be archived with the North Carolina Collection at the Durham County Public Library. Your interview will help document the history of farming and rural life in Durham County. You're welcome to skip any questions, take a break at any time, or stop the interview altogether. Just let me know.

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Do I have your permission to record this interview? (inaudible "yes" from Clara Glenn) Great, thank you. I'm going to just move this a little bit closer to you. How's that?

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Is that okay? Okay, so for the record, could you please state and spell your name and add your birth date and year, if you're willing? What? Can you please state and spell your name?

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Spell my name, C-L-A-R-A--G-L-E-N-N. Thank you. Can you also share your birth date? February 11, 25 (1925).

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Thank you very much. So, I'm going to start with some questions just about growing up, and as I said before, if you don't, you don't have to answer any of these questions, you can just tell me to move on at any point. So, where were you born, and where did you grow up? I was born in Durham County, Bahama.

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And did you grow up in Bahama? Yes, I did. What were some of your earliest memories of childhood? What?

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What were some of your earliest memories of childhood? Some of my earliest memories? Working on the farm. Where did you, where was that farm in Bahama?

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In Bahama. Do you remember the cross streets or any local landmarks nearby? Remember what? Any local landmarks nearby where you grew up in Bahama, or the address?

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Little River School. What was your family like? So, your parents and siblings names? What?

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Who were your parents? My parents were Ed and Ethel Jones. And did you have any siblings? I had two brothers.

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What were their names? Clarence and Graham. What kind of work did your parents do? They were farmers, sharecroppers.

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What do you remember about growing up on the farm? What do I remember about what? What do you remember about growing up on the farm? What do I remember about growing up on the farm?

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It was hard work, little pay. What kind of farming did you do? Tabacco, mostly. Did you see yourself farming when you grew up?

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What? Did you see yourself farming when you grew up? Well, I hadn't, I don't think I thought about that. Where did you go to school?

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Little River. I graduated from Little River High School. What were some of your memories of that school? Well, a whole lot of them were walking to school.

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Well, I don't want to get into that. Was it a long walk? Huh? Was it a long walk to school?

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Yes, it was a long walk. And was it just a few school rooms with a bunch of grades together, or? What? Was it, were there just a few rooms with several grades of children together?

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Well, in elementary school, it was from, I believe it's from one to three, and that was on Bahama Road. And Little River was opened when I was in, I think it was third grade. And yeah, earlier I was in third grade. And when it opened, when it opened, it was from one to two, to eleven.

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You didn't have a twelfth grade, it was eleven. And I went to school from Little River from third grade until I graduated in, I think it was 41. And that's been so long ago, but I do know that my daddy wanted better for us than it was for him. And he had three children.

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All of us had some education beyond high school, and he had five, how many grandchildren did papa have? And all of them, all of them had some, had some education beyond high school. All of them went to college, but, but two. Are you talking about grandpa or papa?

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He had a doctor, a doctor was a doctor, was a grandchild, a lawyer was a grandchild, and his two sons were veterans, but he just better wanted better for us than it was for him. And it was better for us than it was for him. So did your father have any formal schooling, any formal education? Your father?

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My, my, my father could barely write his name, but all of us, all of his children had some education beyond high school. And he wanted better for us than it was for him, and it was. What education did you have after Little River school? Huh?

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What, what education, what schooling did you have? Well, I was a teacher assistant after, after, well, several years after high school. And we, you know, we had to have some, something more than a high school to do that. Were you a teacher's assistant in Durham County?

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Were you a teacher's assistant in Durham County? Yes, and never any place but Durham County. What schools did you teach at? Little River and Mangum.

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Looking back, what was rural Durham County like when you were a little girl? Huh? What, what was this area, what was Durham County, rural Durham County like when you were a girl, as opposed to what it is now? What was it like?

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It was, it was okay. I can say that Durham County was a good place to work. So moving on to kind of your adulthood, um, how did you meet Claude Glenn? Say what?

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How did you meet Claude? I met him in high school. At Little River? At Little River.

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Do you, what do you remember about how you met or what your courtship was like? What was what? What was your courtship like? Like what did you first remember?

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It was for years, for years. He was a nice guy, part of the time, not all the time. When did you all get married? Oh my goodness, in 40, no, no, no, 43, no, no, 1954, something like that. (Cynthia Glenn and Rickey Glenn in background)

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Your daughter's saying 1954? We were married for 66 years, 66. So how long after you met him until you got married? What, like, what was that time like?

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A long time. So what was it like, um, becoming part of the Glenn family? What was it, what? What, what was it like becoming part of the Glenn family?

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I know you were still in Durham County, but you were moving from Bahama up to Rougemont. Was he living in this area on this property? Mm-hmm. So what, what was that like?

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It was okay. What were your first impressions of the farm and the family? Well, my impression of a farm, see, I was raised on a farm, so that wasn't any different. Marrying a farmer wasn't any different from what I was, from what I was used to.

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Were there any differences in, um, his family farm versus the farm that you grew up on? No. No? No.

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So where did you live when you first got married? Across the road, in that house across the road. It was a house across the road. Is it not standing anymore?

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No, there's nobody in it. The house is there, but it's not, not livable. Can you describe it? Can you describe it, just so I know where it is and what it looks like?

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It was a cinder block house. Okay. And how long did you, how long did you live there? Until his, his, uh, his daddy died.

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And when his daddy had his will and thing made, my husband got displaced and we moved here. And his father was Lucious Glenn? His father, your father-in-law was Lucious Glenn, is that right? Yeah, Lucious Glenn was my husband's daddy.

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And, um, his mother was Mary? That's right, Mary. So what, what do you remember about, um, about his parents? About what?

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What do you remember about your in-laws, about Claude's parents? Like when was the first time that you remember meeting them? What kind of people did they seem like? The first time I met them?

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I don't remember, I don't remember that. I don't remember the first time I met them. Do you have any memories of them though? Like, do you have any memories of them, the kind of people they were or what they looked like?

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Oh, they were, um, they were nice people. I mean, you mean, weren't hard to get along with, nothing like that. They were just people. And you mentioned earlier that the farm that you grew up on in Bahama, um, that your family were sharecroppers.

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So was there anything different knowing that the Glenns owned their farm and? Well, the, the, the farm that I grew up in, in Bahama belonged to the Terrys. My, my daddy and his, his parents grew up with the Terrys and that's where we grew up, the Terrys in Bahama. So as, as like a young woman marrying into a family that owned their farm and their land, did that, did that seem any different to you at the time?

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No, not any different, no. And do you remember how many siblings Claude had? And where did he go? I think it was, it was nine of them, I think.

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Yeah, it was nine, right? Wasn't it nine? It was nine all together. And where did he fall in the, uh, like?

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Where did my husband fall? He was the, they were the youngest of, and he was, he had a twin brother, Clarence, but they were the, the youngest of the all, of Lucious and Mary's children. They were the youngest. Do you know much about how the land was divided up in Lucious 's will?

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It was divided up equally among the, among the children when Lucious died, that was in his will. It was divided equally among his children. What stories did family members share, um, growing up and over time about Lucious , Mary, and kind of the earlier generation, so before Lucious and Mary? Um, do you, did you remember hearing any stories about the, the, um, the generations before Lucious ?

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Not, no. You talking about that lived here? Or just in general? Yeah, just in general.

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And yeah, please feel free to speak, if you don't mind just also just introducing yourself. Yeah, my name is, uh, Rickey Glenn, and this farm was actually, my granddaddy bought it, um, not quite sure what year, because my dad is the oldest son of Lucious . And what was his name? Lucious.

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Okay. Makes sense. And the reason it's such a distance, because I'm the last one of 15 of us, and my dad was 50-something when I was born. So I, some of my stories get a little diluted, and, but my dad told me some things about, I think, uh, we call our granddaddy Papa.

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So I think he paid like two and three dollars an acre for this land. And, but they first lived right down the road, probably about, not quite a mile. And it was the old house, which our first cousin, he, he had, they got left that place. That was the original place that was first bought.

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It's right down the road here on the right-hand side. And, but my, uh, granddaddy, they came from Granville County. Granville or Person? Combination of the two.

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Yeah, it's like Granville Person County. Little township at the time. They called it Shakerag. But I think it's better known more like, uh, Siloam.

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It's kind of like the church down there, Siloam Church. But they, but my granddaddy, which his mother was a Parrish, correct? Lucy. Yeah, was a Parrish.

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They came from, like I said, Southern Person, West, Western Granville County. You know, right in that area. It's kind of like back that way. And he took a bold move and I guess made a long trek up here about five miles.

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And that's where he set up homestead. And I don't know how many was born there. I know my dad was. Do you remember?

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Because when they, because when he bought this place, I think it's about half and half. I'm not sure. No, his daddy and foreparents were born over there too. Okay, well that was the whole ocean.

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Everybody. Yeah, so everybody was born over there, over at the first home place that they acquired. Then they just started, he started buying and acquiring land up here, which ended up totaling about 360 acres. Do you, so it was about 360 acres.

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Do you know about at what year it was about that size? Maybe around the late 20s or so? 20s and into the 30s, I imagine. I think so.

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Yeah. Do you have any idea what brought him from Southern Person-Granville County here to Durham and this specific area? My name is Cynthia Glenn and I am Claude and Clara's daughter. Papa ended up buying the land from Captain Bowling, who ran into a little bit of a financial problem and that's how he got this piece.

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This is actually the old Bowling house. And I was just telling Cynthia back here about um, the Bowlings are buried right through the woods up there. And you're talking about early 1800s stuff. And I made a discovery.

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They have a rock graveyard up there. Then there's a lot of headstones outside the actual cemetery, which led me to believe they were not white people. That were enslaved people that was buried on the outside of there. And I took pictures of it.

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Did I send it to you? I don't think you did. But anyway Yeah.

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So basically this house has a lot of history because I've worked on it. And when I was up under the house, I couldn't figure out why there was a fireplace under the house with no floor to it. It was just dirt. I don't know if y'all can figure out what was going on there.

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That's, that's where the slaves were. That's where they went and warmed up, up under the house, right here. So this house right here that my granddad acquired, we estimated to be around about, we figured it was built about 18, what was it, about 1830, something like that. Yeah.

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Because as I was out, took the house apart, some of it. Now I was telling Cynthia, I said, Cynthia, you know, there's no nails that hold this house together. It's all wooden pegs that hold this house together. And the historic value of this is just when you see the craftsmanship, and I don't know how they built it.

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And my granddaddy, they were able to maintain this house as it is for all these years. You're looking right at, how many years is this? This house is almost 200 years old. 200.

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Yeah, something like that. And so, with my granddaddy, papa, we call it, and our grandmother, which, where were they from? Mammy's people? Yeah.

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Granville. Yeah, so my granddad, his wife was from Granville County. He married, her maiden name was McManon. So, which they had a bunch of children.

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I think it was two sets of them. Two sets. So, the patriarch of that family was Austin McManon. So, I think his first wife, Cynthia, you google that.

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What was her name? His first wife, Lucy. Right. He had two Lucys.

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So, his first wife had, it was all girls, wasn't it? One boy. There were 11 children, 10 girls, one boy. He was the very last one.

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And so, with all these, all his children, created a huge family, you know, a huge family dynamic. When, you know, you take all the girls, which had husbands and children, whatever. Back in the day, we used to have the family reunion up here. I mean, it would be cars parked everywhere because of all the families that basically derived from the McManons and the Glenns.

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So, it was a pretty well-known family, probably one of the biggest landowners in Durham County at the time. I don't think anybody matched that, you know. It wasn't the best land. It wasn't, I mean, you got to think about the time period when my grandmother and my granddaddy bought this.

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This was kind of looked over land because the best land was purchased by other people. But they made a living off of it. It's still here. So, a few parcels gone, but out there, you're talking folks that made it something years, almost 100, I imagine.

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More like 100. It's not been many pieces sold out of here. So, it's like maybe four acres sold out at 360. So, it's been holding on to it pretty good.

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Yeah. Well, and so you said that the first piece of land that Lucious purchased was across the piece across the road with the homeplace on it. Is that right? Yes.

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It's down the road, probably about 800 yards on the right-hand side. Okay. And I know there's a story of Lucious walking to the Durham County Courthouse to record the sale of that property. Have you heard that?

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Do you know, is there a truth to that? Is that a story that was told in your family? I've heard that one. Well, if you got to Durham, you either rode a wagon or you walked because there was no cars going on.

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No. And you're talking about some of the farm stories, which my dad and my granddaddy would tell because my granddad, I think was, he said he was born in 1881, but everybody else said he was born in 82. 81. But he was born in 81, which made him, he was 100 when he died.

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No, 99. If he was born in 81 and he died in November. Okay. All right.

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Birthday in August. All right. Yes, it was in August. Am I right?

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Okay. Okay. You see, Rickey's daddy was the oldest and my daddy, I mean, my husband was the youngest, so he knows all this stuff. I didn't get it.

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Not all of it. I got some of it, but I didn't get all of it. Well, actually, no. Dad was not the youngest.

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But I do know. His twin brother was the baby. His granddaddy had, I think it was about 400 acres of land in this area. And this house, from my understanding, was a Dr. Bowling something of a, I think.

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Captain Bowling. And when his granddaddy bought it, it was just when I saw what he paid for it. It was just a little bit. And it looked like then it was, it just didn't seem that anybody could have that amount of land and pay that little for it.

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But back then, money was money. And now, one, the portion that one got was a whole lot more, worth a whole lot more than he paid for the whole thing. Well, it sounds like, from what Rickey said, and what I also know about the land in the area, that so much of it has stayed within the family as well. And I know part of that also ties back to the interest in protecting it with the conservation easements.

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I think he wanted to keep it in the family. I think he did. And I think everybody, all of the children that got the land, got it. I think all they have, it's all in the family, but maybe two.

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And that is what I wanted to keep it. And so far, I think that's what they want to do. No, because I've just thought about some of the stories my granddaddy talked. And Rickey's helping do it.

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So when they weren't farming, my granddaddy, Lucious, he said we used to cut cross ties. You know what that is, right? Uh-oh. You don't know what cross ties are?

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I don't know. Did you know? He knows. Huh?

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Telephone pole cross ties. Nope. Not those. Cross ties, yes, but not the right one.

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Okay. Railroad that the rails set on, those cross ties, those cross ties. My granddaddy said they cut them, cut cross ties all day, 25 cents a day, 25 cents a day. So when she says the land was like it was not that much, yeah, that was a bunch of money.

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Because if you work six days, you work six days a week, you don't work, there was no five. You won't get off at three or four o'clock. It was "can to can't." Do you know what that is?

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Can't see to can't see. I don't think so. What is it? Can see to can't see.

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Yeah. Say it one more time. You can see till you can't see. Yeah.

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So you stand out there, as soon as you get light, you start. Then when the man cut the light off, you stop. That's "can to can't." So yeah, six days a week, you know, 25 cents a day.

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Come on, takes a minute. You got to feed your family off that same 25 cents and then try to save some money to be able to buy something look like our daily wage could have bought this whole place basically with two days but at 25 cents a day how long you think right you never buy you

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never buy so as she said money is was money was money yeah it was money you know and they sell tobacco and my daddy said uh him and papa that's his daddy he said they would leave on the wagon they load up the tobacco and they sold the tobacco downtown Durham he said they would leave early like a Monday so the whole so the whole day was traveling to Durham they would get

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the tobacco on the floor hope they sold it early so they could do a little shopping and buy you know because going to town you know that's what we say going to town was a big deal it's almost like going to D.C. if you can think about that because it took two days to make that trip so the tobacco they would sell the tobacco

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so they would do a little shopping that stuff that you couldn't buy up here at the local you know store and uh he said they would get the sheets and whatever they had to carry the tobacco and sticks on it then put the sticks loaded on the wagon he said well on about one o'clock that morning which would be Wednesday morning they finally get back

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here so a trip that's going to take me 25 minutes when I go home to Durham took them basically almost three days to do it do you know where they would um like camp out in Durham when they would go in for uh to the tobacco market uh so in the warehouse in the warehouse so you know where Rigsby Avenue is that's where all Rigsby Foster Street that was the

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warehouses and that was a big to do and that's and and when you see on the maps they talking about medicine and hydroelectricity uh James Buchanan Duke that that's not what put Durham on the map it was tobacco but they didn't kinda sugar coat you know tobacco was king around here in other things you know. So. Would they ever talk about selling at other markets or was it always Durham?

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How long you couldn't get there you couldn't get there. (Cynthia Glenn) It was always Durham basically. yeah I mean as stuff became more mechanized you know you could venture out but when it was just mules and horses you had to get to the closest market that you could get to, which was Durham. and see what you got to think about my dad said the roads were rutted up he said the worst place

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that they would encounter trying to get to the tobacco market was right there 85 at Avondale Drive he said that was the worst bottom he said there would be mules and wagons and stuff stuck on side of the road and people trying to get them because this is a hit once you go y'all been there go up under there yeah see Ellerbe Creek and it was low ground

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muddy as crap not paved not paved and soon you came out the bottom you going up a hill and that was I think one of their biggest obstacles you know trying to get to Durham well you didn't work all year and now you you tied it with this you know And so that was your grandfather, the stories from your grandfather Lucious Glenn, right? So how

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how big of tobacco farming like how big did that stay in the later generations is that what people continued to farm on as the properties were divided up? No it was uh the twin uncles and my dad, and they basically retired out of there and my uncle Claude he was my uncle Claude and my aunt Clara they were the last actual tobacco farmers they were the last and you know.

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I mean there's still a couple of families around here that do. And so and she has two daughters, and they're interested in keeping it too she has two one's a doctor and one is a lawyer. What are some of your memories of tobacco farming? Tobacco farming is hard work okay but I mean it was hard work but in and it wasn't all that hard either

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and I think if I could do it again I'd do the same thing. How um were you did you were you farming tobacco up until the tobacco buyouts or did you? Yes, oh yeah, that's when that's when Claude stopped when they had the buyout when I forgot what year that was. but that was when he stopped tobacco when they had the buyout.

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What do you, so it was around 2004-ish. (Clara Glenn) "somewhere along in there." What do you remember about that time and like learning that the tobacco buyouts were going to happen and like what was what was kind of the sentiment in the air if that was a significant I'm assuming that was a significant source of your income yeah do you remember what that time was like when they announced that the tobacco buyouts were happening

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Well it was, I don't know, it made you wonder what was going to happen next and we don't know what's going to happen next because it's been happening ever since. Tobacco is gone in Durham County. From the time period where you were still farming tobacco, do you remember going to

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other um other markets? (Clara Glenn) "Huh?" Do you remember going to other markets? (Clara Glenn) "No." Did you ever go to markets with Claude? (Clara Glenn) "I didn't." Okay, did Claude ever go to other markets or did he always go to Durham? Yes he went to Roxboro and Oxford (Rickey and Cynthia Glenn) "and then South Boston." Do you know much about decisions on which markets he'd go to was it just when the tobacco...

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No it was word of mouth of what it was going by pound because the magic number if I can remember like the grade good grade they said tobacco's bringing 180 in South Boston so everybody went to South Boston so you know you're going to the money you know that's you're trying to get maximum profit so no computer basically hardly no phone so when you see somebody pull up there's going to be

00:38:14.090 - 00:38:40.050

a conversation on what was going on with the markets this and that so word of mouth and that's what neighbors around here did they was telling you the best the best deal on trying to sell your goods you know so that's how they did it and they would just say and they took they took it for word they said old Pee Wee Harris them said tobacco selling for such and such. Pee Wee, they tobacco

00:38:40.050 - 00:39:08.390

farmers in right in Orange County and and they they went on that. They didn't question it because it was going to be true you know so just thinking back how people can't walk 10 feet without having the phone and people didn't have that second thought that they didn't have one you know if something happened somebody came over here and told you the news or they rang a

00:39:08.390 - 00:39:35.470

bell at the church or something you know and tobacco just went the other thing they had they had like uh they raised my uncle and they had I used to hear stories about they had some of the prettiest beef cattle, the Herefords. I never saw them but I just heard about how how how nice of a herd my uncle had I don't even think you remember them do you (Cynthia Glenn) "not the Herefords now no."

00:39:36.430 - 00:40:02.810

she I don't the Herefords y'all had hmm huh you know the the beef cow the Herefords the Herefords the Hereford cows (Clara Glenn) "Say what?" He was mentioning that you had Hertford cows. (Clara Glenn) "Had what?" Cattle (Clara Glenn) "yeah okay" what what in addition to tobacco what kind of livestock or other crops did you cows pigs

00:40:05.640 - 00:40:43.900

see would you horses oh boy let Rickey tell you about the horses yeah this kind of this family's kind of we always kind of had horses I probably had some of the most I probably had over 80 but uh oh come on so like I said with the extra income my dad had a dairy farm but then my uncle had beef cattle and they supplemented

00:40:43.900 - 00:41:17.800

tobacco with selling the cattle and the hog part was you know we just grow our own meat basically you know and we raised pigs not even say commercial but we raised a bunch of hogs you know we had about 200 and that time you had to catch them oh yeah oh boy yeah so and I always had a pony or horse or something I was riding and I just remember we had the

00:41:17.800 - 00:41:40.680

family reunion up here and my mom and this is just about me now I'm just gonna tell it um my mom said do not ride that pony to that family reunion my cousins had some ponies and we was gonna race it's a little old strip right there that was gonna race we had planned it because we cut through the woods go to each other and I said "we're gonna

00:41:40.680 - 00:42:06.160

race," so all the kids knew about the race so everybody went up there top of the hill and we took off from my uncle George's place coming this way because their paths all throughout yes all paths all through the farm to connect all the you know and I'm wearing my cousins out but my pony won't stop so I came down through there and all the people in the yard and I

00:42:06.160 - 00:42:29.100

scattered everybody and you know my mom didn't raise her voice and when I got the pony and everybody's like "Oh he can ride that pony!" so my mom kind of eased over she said, "You know I'm gonna whip you when we get to the house," and all I thought about was like death row I said this this is death row you know and uh I said how can I get out of this you didn't have a way to get

00:42:29.100 - 00:43:04.030

of a whipping how can I get out of this I said there's no way. So she said "you take that pony on to the house." and I said I said I said "I could run away" I said "no, that ain't gonna work" When her brother went to college her dad bought her a horse so she wouldn't be lonesome Shirley, Shirley, yeah so so anyway what happened at the end oh oh at the end of the story was

00:43:04.030 - 00:43:34.810

when I got home we had a sow they had just just had some pigs they they weren't too old they were out durocs my mom's prized pigs because you know she send money to the to the one that was in a little bit of college she'd send a little money with pigs she sold and pigs getting out that was devastating and my mom said, "oh lord those pigs out," here's my chance I didn't need any help

00:43:35.390 - 00:43:58.670

I didn't need any help this sow had 12 pigs I caught every one of them by hand put the mama back in and the rest of them just standing back looking and they was probably wondering like why is he working so hard getting pigs back in I was trying to get a stay of execution what I was trying to get so it worked it worked it worked but I was still waiting because she's like waiting

00:43:58.670 - 00:44:30.610

to the last minute to get you like uh-oh she's gonna get me yeah but she she let me slide on that one she let me slide so the the interaction with us back and forth like my uncle Clarence my uncle George see all all my granddaddy's daughters they got married and they left so his sons stayed so all the kids that were around here was from the you know that his sons

00:44:30.610 - 00:44:55.630

so my uncle Clarence he lived that way up the road on the Red Mountain side yeah you cut you could cut all the way through the woods you had to get on the road then uncle George just cut through there yeah just follow this path and go to his place so also uncle Clarence you cut all the way through the woods it's about a good mile and you come out right in front of our farm but

00:44:55.630 - 00:45:23.230

you had to cross the road which back then was a dirt road and traffic was so slow the dog used to lay down and go to sleep in the road you know I mean they went to sleep in the road because nobody coming by and if we heard a car or something coming you were going to see it because that was a treat somebody's come down the road I mean this was rural, rural, rural, where you could see every star

00:45:23.230 - 00:45:51.430

in the sky all the daggum lightning bugs which we'd catch them you know put them in a jar and all that junk that that was farm simplicity at its best and it was just it was just good you worked hard all day and you know you used to have fun so just like she was saying it was hard but then when you said now "how hard was it?" because if that hard you wouldn't even be here to tell

00:45:51.430 - 00:46:20.450

about it so it didn't kill us. Did not kill us. She's 101. I'm 68. I still work full-time. She's a few years younger she works full-time. So hard work, I don't know if it hurts you or not but we're here. Well and a question for both you just hearing those stories of like all these paths cutting through and just all the kids and the families um I can just imagine like you you kind of knew

00:46:20.450 - 00:46:42.210

everybody around here. So did all of that like how did the farming go on with all these different families? Were you all I mean was it kind of like one big family or were people... It would be a joint venture people would help each other do different things if they needed help on stuff yeah it was a joint venture yeah and how how well did you all stay in touch with um the family

00:46:42.210 - 00:47:05.290

members that did move away? I mean it sounds like you still have family reunion. That was the importance of the family reunion. That was the whole deal because that family reunion was so important then because like I said you didn't have Facebook no internet no nothing everybody didn't have phones so to see somebody the next time you're going to see someone in the family was one year away

00:47:06.850 - 00:47:33.710

and everybody was happy to see him you know you know and you get to get stuff that you normally don't get through the year like like my dad would go get the big blocks of ice and they had a wooden barrel that they made the lemonade in and they cut the hickory stick to stir it with and I mean I'm saying to get lemonade you know "you can get lemonade," no no you

00:47:33.710 - 00:48:02.470

couldn't you couldn't you get it once a year that was a family reunion yeah yeah so that's what made it so you know every every cake you could imagine cakes two feet tall well not really but you know they had them they had them and it was just like a carnival state fair family you know all wrapped into one you know and and some of the people that were really had really made it you

00:48:02.470 - 00:48:32.630

know they come in with a nice car and you sit there and look at the car and wish you could get one later on or something in life you know and that that was just a thing but I always loved this place you know the whole place. I went to Marine Corps for four years and guys would uh have the girlfriend "send send me a picture" I'd have my mom take a picture of the pig and the guys yeah the guys

00:48:32.630 - 00:48:57.170

man what's wrong with you I said no that's home I'm serious I said that's home take take a picture of the field that's what I wanted to see, you know. A little bit earlier you also mentioned when you were talking about how like word of mouth is how you would hear kind of what tobacco was going for the different markets right and you mentioned um Peewee Harris and I know that I've heard that

00:48:57.170 - 00:49:25.890

name in this area and I've heard some other names who were the other who like who were the neighbors of the other families in this area um both when you were growing up I'm asking about neighbors and other families in this area that um that you all were friends with knew about? Um Mr. Maso Bullock. He lived across the river right past the church and he had him and his wife had 16 children they

00:49:25.890 - 00:49:55.210

had a they farmed right up on the corner and um yeah I was he was gonna follow me with the tractor over there to the farm I didn't know anyway whatever so um Mr. Ed Tharp, I think they had about 14 14 in their family they raised tobacco. Uh the Harris's, down the hill, the other Harris's. So it's Black Harris and White Harris so Mr. Robert Harris that's they they farmed tobacco

00:49:55.210 - 00:50:22.410

Peewee Harris they farmed tobacco that way then Russell Poole. Russell Poole, which uh I hunted with him and then they he farmed probably the most at that time probably close to 70 or 80 acres of tobacco. So Jackson Tilley yeah Jackson Tilley which we called the mountain which he lived over the mountain. So the coordinating, (Cynthia Glenn) "oh did we forget the Russell's?"

00:50:22.410 - 00:50:48.630

Yeah the Russell's which is across the road. So when when you get ready to plant tobacco, tobacco is a multi-phase deal here so you just don't plant it you got to prepare a seed bed well in advance and for weed control before they had the chemicals only way you could get weed control is you had to go get a new ground go place in the woods where it's been no weeds so

00:50:48.630 - 00:51:10.010

they would they would call grubbing that out they would cut the trees down and dig up the roots and plant the seeds put uh this kind of a cheese cloth looking thing over it to protect the delicate plants they would grow when they get hot they would take it off it's gonna get cold they'll put it back like babies you know so

00:51:11.570 - 00:51:34.490

if one farmer says, "I'm through planting I got enough plants you can come and get plants from me," you didn't have to buy them they offered them to you if you didn't have enough we we never had to buy plants they they were offering to you and that's just way I mean it was just unheard of somebody had to go buy some tobacco plants they just didn't do it

00:51:34.970 - 00:52:03.140

you would go to your neighbor or the neighbor come said "I'm done planting you need anything?" You go get them and then during the summer if you were late and they were early I would go help whoever needed it and I would get my little extra money from that and whoever any anybody that won't scared of work they would go out there and help the other uh neighbors farm and they pay you

00:52:03.140 - 00:52:37.950

whatnot. (James Tabron barely inaudible) "Black and White?" yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it was it was a weird kind of time where you know to me I never worried about nothing like "oh god somebody's gonna do something," I never thought about it because the even though it was kind of separate but not separate. But it was also the different dynamic of coming from a position of papa owning his own land also made somewhat of a difference. That there was a difference there.

00:52:39.930 - 00:53:10.470

Yeah see we we never like I said we are you know our family always owned what we had you know so and I think it was a respect there since you said that it was respect that the fact that our family owned their own you know and and all the men would come up on Sundays that's how I said that's how the news the gossip news whatever else happened you

00:53:10.470 - 00:53:40.210

know you know there's other curricular activities going on around here you know I don't know they they they brewed a special water up this way I don't know who did it but somebody did it you know and it was known. You don't have any idea what I'm talking about do you? Talk to PeeWee on that one

00:53:43.120 - 00:54:19.380

What was it? It happens when you get a thunderstorm and a streak of lightning streak of lightning. (Julianne Patterson) "There were a lot of stills in this area." I mean you can walk in the woods now and you're like "what is that" and a stick a dynamite with ABC on it and put in there and blew that thing all to pieces. Any creek, any creek, I bet there's a liquor still on that. And the thing about it

00:54:20.140 - 00:54:44.820

they had to find it because they didn't tell you they did not tell you did not tell you. It was not just the mountains. Nope. See they always talk about Wilkesboro see it was a guy down in uh see see my granddad and my dad in Johnston County Percy Flowers down in Johnston County. He owned Johnston County.

00:54:47.780 - 00:55:22.220

Literally he was a big farmer, but he also was a "big farmer." and he was kind of like the Don of you know all that was going on he was the man see then the next man that was a big farmer was John Poole which he was like the colonel of this man all of them were farmers so when you see these farms that was huge huge huge huge two and three

00:55:22.220 - 00:55:56.780

thousand acres oh yeah oh yeah that's how they got them. See back then two or three hundred acres that was kind of like a regular farm. I'm serious. That that was just that was just a normal farm but when they get on up there in the thousands and you see the tractors and whatever now. Here's where the problem came with farming around here I always asked my dad and my

00:55:56.780 - 00:56:31.460

granddad I said, "Why you don't you have equipment like them?" You cannot get the loan. Could not get the loan. So you always got handed-down equipment. You could never reach that next tier never could never could reach that next tier because everything that you were doing they were 20 years ahead of you. 20 years. I mean not that you were competing but to be able to

00:56:31.460 - 00:57:00.000

sustain a farm no real productive you had to go with the time you know if you were behind you was always you always kind of stayed behind, you know. And you and you would try and people worked hard then if people worked hard now like they did then, I don't know what they would have and and I and I look at uh what my granddaddy

00:57:01.300 - 00:57:28.680

my uncle my other uncle farm with I got I call my stuff junk I got more than all of them combined had. They just couldn't get it, they couldn't afford it. You know you're thinking about a tractor we used to go to the sales the auction sales I said, "Dad buy that big tractor." And he would look at me like I was crazy because I guess he thought I was.

00:57:31.840 - 00:58:00.380

And you just couldn't you just couldn't buy a nice piece of equipment it just wasn't the money was not there to do it. You had to get the next thing you'd have to buy a tractor that was already 40 years old when you bought it. But they made it, with that, in spite of in spite of they made it. with that you know so I applaud them for the day they would quit it they would have been said "heck

00:58:00.380 - 00:58:26.080

with this I'm going to town." They didn't. They stuck it out. It's an interesting point that you bring up about the inability to get a loan to buy the equipment to kind of level up the farming um because I know in the conversations I've had with a lot of other uh like legacy farm families in this area everybody has kind of hit on the fact that it was a very like mixed race community and

00:58:26.080 - 00:58:51.260

yes there like there were separate schools and churches um but it there did seem to be this community um and so earlier you also mentioned that um when when people would go into town for the tobacco auctions and they would go to the stores because otherwise you were dependent on whatever you got locally and you kind of you gestured towards uh downtown Rougemont (Rickey Glenn) "yeah" um

00:58:51.260 - 00:59:18.870

can you talk a little like what were what were the store like what were your options? (Cynthia Glenn) "The store." Marvin Carver (Cynthia Glenn) "Carver store." Marvin Carver he had everything now it was some stories about him he was a "jack" there's another part to that name. But when you could my mom now my mom told this part she said you already saw all the mules that was tied up in front of his store where people

00:59:18.870 - 00:59:47.670

couldn't they had acquired a bill and they couldn't pay off he came you know "bring your mule but that's your collateral." So now that's what they got to do in order to farm they got to come up with the money to get the mule back from him so now he makes a deal. Another deal with them. With already the money they're already owing and you see what I'm talking about how you could never

00:59:47.670 - 01:00:16.270

get ahead can't get ahead that way because you're always owing always owing so that was the majority of the black people that didn't own their property because the only collateral they had was going to be a mule. But if you had land you know people they you know you had a little bit more clout and whatnot but but Marvin Carver it was kind of like what like a mercantile whatever yeah had everything

01:00:16.270 - 01:00:42.450

had everything. And you know my dad and probably yours believed in if it got ready to snow you know people like "better go get some milk" which didn't have to because we already had a cow my dad always said, "better go get 50 pounds of flour and some molasses," I said damn so that's what we're gonna need if it snows this deep you know so and that that was it that and so like I

01:00:42.450 - 01:01:09.390

said my dad was born in 1907 so hard times he'd seen him my aunt has seen him so he would never throw away nothing he'd have shoes hung up in the barn that didn't curl up in the toe I'm like what is he keeping these shoes for children have a depression depression like you say a depression you don't know if you're going to need it or not he was talking about taking a tire and putting

01:01:09.390 - 01:01:40.830

on another tire put a tire on a tire to have a tire you know a workable tire and like I said the depression the war you know when the war came they said you couldn't get anything you couldn't get anything because everything was going to the war effort and like I said uh my uncle her husband he was in the army my uncle he was in the army my other uncle

01:01:40.830 - 01:02:17.650

he was in the army my daddy had too many children to go so he didn't go so not only they were farmers they were veterans you know and then a lot just like her her brothers like she said about her brothers people did their part back then you know farm and and the wives held it down if they had husbands while he was gone held it down. Do you remember the general store in Rougemont? (Clara Glenn) "Remember what?" Do

01:02:17.650 - 01:02:51.590

you remember store do you remember the general store carver's store in um marvin carver yeah yeah (Cynthia Glenn) "Talk about it." What do you remember about it? (Clara Glenn) "Very little." Do you remember when it was it the store or their house that burned down? (Rickey and Cynthia Glenn) "Their house." (Clara Glenn) "Yeah I remember that too." I can tell you the store looked like a western looking saloon building to me I'm serious it looked like right

01:02:51.590 - 01:03:20.910

out of a western the store as you go to Rougemont but it was on the right hand side right next to the road and it had hitching posts and everything and it was it was a big white store with a long like uh porch type thing on it but then he built the store across the road which was brick because they tore that one down. (Cynthia Glenn) "which is the one I remember." Yeah, so you don't remember the white one?

01:03:20.910 - 01:03:40.730

No. Yeah I can remember the white one good so they tore it and built the brick store oh he upgraded you know I think he had a car wash it was a car wash I think the post office was in there this was on the edge yeah the post office was on the edge he had it going on until his house burned. How did you know about his house burning?

01:03:40.730 - 01:04:07.550

Well it's come up and I've heard um that he and his wife were murdered and yeah yeah yeah (Rickey Glenn) "that's that's the still the greatest whodunit right now in Rougemont." it's come up in a couple of conversations. (Rickey Glenn) "yeah whodunit." yeah the only thing that didn't burn was the garage and the garage is still standing beside That house that was built in its place yep so like I said that was the go-to store for nails

01:04:07.550 - 01:04:38.140

staples uh tobacco planters you've seen you ever seen the metal tobacco planters and just sure yes shoes you know brogans that's what we call them and I think you could buy stuff in 100 pound sacks back then meal oh down here at the river I forgot about that they used to grow their own corn and they would take it to the mill

01:04:38.880 - 01:04:56.540

and grind it right down here at the river it was a gristmill the water. But guess what happened to that mill? 1996 what happened to it when Fran come in here and dropped about 18 inches of water the water went over the bridge

01:04:58.540 - 01:05:30.180

what I don't know how did y'all come that way the water went completely over that bridge took the took the mill I found it the mill was way down it's an island in the river and it washed the uh it crashed it right into that island and the mill door the mill door which was probably about 17 feet it washed it up on the bank about 100 yards from where the river actually is that's

01:05:30.180 - 01:05:57.890

how high the river got I ain't never seen the river that high I heard my granddaddy talk about how it got but I never ever in my life seen it that high and that mill was the staple back you know for that's where everybody ground that corn and stuff yeah right there. Do you remember um the storm we had about almost exactly a year ago now like where the water compared to back in when Fran came through? Because it got high.

01:05:57.890 - 01:06:23.370

It got high a year ago you you were talking about that little old front that came yeah yeah the one that messed up Chapel Hill oh yeah it was all up it was horrible in Caswell it was certain pockets and you can still see it now because when I go hunting you can see where I was like "good gracious" we got it we got it but it was it was just it pocketed

01:06:23.370 - 01:06:56.570

right up around Caswell-Orange-Person and so all that water that was raining so some so a lot of water is the Cape Fear side and that stuff it washed away you know farmland and when I say wash it away the topsoil and whatnot which uh we just didn't get it that bad it was bad but not as bad as them. It got to the bottom of the bridge but it it was never going to cross, yeah.

01:06:57.310 - 01:07:30.720

For all of you what kind of stands out in how farming has changed in this area over time? The ones that still have a farm it's especially you know the technology is there and with the buyouts with tobacco whoever has tobacco has a bunch of it. So John Gray up here I was talking to my buddy Barry I was "how much land, how much tobacco does he

01:07:30.720 - 01:07:56.760

plant he said he plants almost 500 acres of tobacco." And any tobacco that you see in Person County it's him you know he plants it everywhere. Well it's not only him but it's it's it's real prominent up that way and with the equipment very the labor is not there you know they got a lot of stuff that you take care of the labor any labor you just about sitting on a piece of equipment

01:07:56.760 - 01:08:26.760

you don't you know it's not a whole lot of actual hands-on it's not labor intensive like it was back when we were coming up you know just like the Tallies this farm over here Bill McFarland they lease his land but they they they farm 5,000 acres. And they got those uh tractors that I only dream about those that come from uh Sweden and all that and I was asking the guys "how much

01:08:26.760 - 01:08:47.820

that tractor?" he said uh "we paid $600,000 for that" I'm like come on man you know I can't even buy the tire to this thing so that's how farming has changed you know I would like I don't I don't want to compete or get into that like that but you know I would like to have stuff a little like to have my stuff at least no later than 20 years old

01:08:48.960 - 01:09:13.100

I mean but but here's the thing about it you know I don't know if you know about John Deere and all that technology that you can't work on your own stuff I kind of rather have older stuff we call it the true iron we call it iron stuff my tractor right there it's older than you I think I guess it's older than you. (Steven, Photographer) "That's pretty damn old."

01:09:13.100 - 01:09:39.620

Well don't know how old you are I'm taking a guess hold on I'm (Steven, Photographer) "I'm uh three years younger than you I'm 65." okay y'all share a birthday okay (Steven, Photographer) "we'll go out on the town to party." Yeah my tractor so old how old was it um I went to the dealership to get a part for it and I told him the serial number

01:09:42.620 - 01:10:08.360

086069 he said that number is wrong I said okay let me say it a different way and I gave him the same number he said they don't they ain't make no tractor with that number I said what it is that's the first of those those tractors so the older guy that came in he said you got to go way back he found it so everything that the younger people were dealing with they had serial

01:10:08.360 - 01:10:34.860

numbers that was this long you know so that's how it's changed the serial number is so long it'll take you know a book to read it and I just said my I can remember mine can you remember the VIN number on your car there's no way you can that's basically a VIN number I can remember it because the numbers is not about the numbers and the only thing I replaced major on that was just what

01:10:34.860 - 01:11:05.960

happened the clutch think about that that clutch been in something 65 years and it finally wore out 65 years that's why new stuff is all right but like I said in the 90s 80s 90s I can stay right in there right in there because like I said you then you got to deal with the computers and I'm I'm on the cusp of knowing just enough about computers just enough

01:11:05.960 - 01:11:34.440

now my dad or my uncle's one oh you just gonna throw a hand grenade in that because it wouldn't happen if they couldn't actually go out there and fix it themselves they just wouldn't have done it they never took a tractor to the shop they fixed it themselves they did and I always see my uncle Claude he'd come out with the blue book yep and they were steady on there

01:11:34.440 - 01:12:02.260

him my dad they'd be leaning over it I don't know if they were asleep or working on it but after a while they they crank that thing you know yeah they go through the book and crank it you know so back then people did what they needed to do to get stuff to going they really did (Cynthia Glenn) "that's very true." so knowing how much farming has changed since Lucious first

01:12:02.260 - 01:12:31.380

kind of acquired all of this land and um and how I'm sure kind of its its value and its necessity for the family has also evolved over time um what and you you talked about this a little bit earlier on about the interest in preserving this land keeping it within the family and how much of this land still is within the family. Did Lucious did he ever talk about and Claude did

01:12:31.380 - 01:13:16.290

they ever talk about wanting to keep this land in the family forever? Yeah, some did. They talk about that like what I mean yes if anybody had worked hard enough to get it why would you not want to keep it I mean because if you sell it then you can't buy anymore not you're not going to buy any for what for the price you get that for so if you have it keep it while you got

01:13:16.290 - 01:13:50.610

it because if you get rid of it you can't get it back. Would they ever talk about it being hard to hold on to the land or like having hardships or anything like that or was it always just kind of a this is what it is we're hanging on to it? (Clara Glenn) "no I don't remember that I don't I just know it" It bothered my uncle when he wasn't unsure when he was not sure about what some of the

01:13:51.630 - 01:14:22.090

his nieces and nephews you know after his sisters and he left you know as he starts trickling down leaving it us when you have no ties to it it's easy to sell it easy to sell it and I know for a fact that it just truly bothered my uncle Claude that it would get just they would just let it go just without even thinking about it and it has happened

01:14:22.640 - 01:14:51.110

not not a large amount but none of it should have left but like I said interest I have a son I have two sons and I'm trying you know you can't force nothing down nobody's throat but I'm trying to introduce them and like the importance just like my uncle my uncle her husband because he always, "let me tell you something dad," that's how that's how he would address you

01:14:51.110 - 01:15:18.460

"let me tell you something dad." and he had an old shed right there and I redone it and the many stories he told about not to get rid of property you know you know because he knew the hardship of getting it and that you wouldn't get it back because you got people with deep pockets that you can't compete with you know if the property come up for sale they can drive it

01:15:18.460 - 01:15:46.320

up to where if the property value around here is around about 8,000 acre and somebody said well I give you 12 you out of it that's that's why she was saying to work so hard and then just basically almost give it away you'll never get it back you'll never get it back and I think it's a wonderful thing that they have this uh save the farm so when people drive down the road and they say I wonder

01:15:46.320 - 01:16:18.750

what did they used to look like they when they still see what it looks like you know you know some places need work and that's what I told my uncles and my well my first cousins now I kind of do the rest of them there's farm you know I plant stuff on it but I told I said I wanted just to remain productive and you can see what they were seeing hopefully better you know

01:16:19.810 - 01:16:42.780

I said I might not own it but I get enjoyment out of that and I appreciate my aunt letting me be up here to do what I do. I have a question I kind of want to ask each of you um but what do you hope future generations see or think about when they see or visit this property? They would think about what?

01:16:43.000 - 01:17:07.080

What do you hope future generations um see and think about when they see this property? What do you want them to know? Want them to keep it forever as long as the Glenn got a name keep it. What about what about people that um aren't in your family that are just admiring the property?

01:17:07.680 - 01:17:27.280

What about people that are not in your family that are just in Durham admiring the property? Is there anything that you wish that they would see and kind of take away just from? Don't even talk to them about it because it ain't for sale. And what about both of you?

01:17:28.040 - 01:18:11.700

What do you hope future generations see or take away from um this property? Well it's already happening because uh like Diana her daughter she will plant the uh flowers on the road and all different things and and people will say that place up there in the springtime with the way it looks. (Cynthia Glenn) "It sure looks nice!" Yeah because you know like I said my uncle and my aunt they know they've been up in years and they couldn't do so when I came up here and they started letting me you know I had to get equipment and kind of remove a bunch of trees and get stuff back. Oh yeah.

01:18:12.560 - 01:18:28.020

But in other and people that come through here daily they saw the transformation that was happening because it's a pond down there that you used to couldn't see and I remember her saying my aunt said I hadn't seen that pond for years from sitting on the porch because it was just a line

01:18:28.020 - 01:18:58.730

of cedar trees that blocked it blocked the view you couldn't see it that's the first thing I took out so she could see her husband my uncle is buried right up there I thinned the trees out so she could see the cemetery as best I could so she could see and you know it's just stuff I thought would be pleasant for her you know you know and I hope and I hope I made a difference I'm making a

01:18:58.730 - 01:19:12.310

difference or whatever work in progress. It's a work in progress. Yeah uh as my son said I'm what's that word adh or something I have 50 things going at one time and finish them eventually

01:19:13.230 - 01:19:49.730

you know eventually but I'm just thinking if it hadn't been for my granddaddy my grandmama buying this property having a daughter-in-law like mine and with a mind set like they did I said I don't know where this would be it might would be gone because you got to have a mindset to want to keep this and people like her I thank God for it.

01:19:58.830 - 01:20:28.660

I just hope that it kind of stays out as it is because even Durham is not Durham anymore. When you go back and they turn up some more instant apartments all over the place and it's like oh okay but you know you can't have you have to keep some of the land in place you can't build up everything. Like where was I? I was going um past the old um American Legion post over on Dearborn it's like "wow oh yeah wow."

01:20:28.660 - 01:21:03.270

So so just just imagine this and I'm just going to jump in you know where Eno River the Eno River Park? Just imagine, as a boy I used to look on the left hand side and I would see the dairy cows going down to the river to drink water old farms that's the name of the place why they named that old farm that's what it was. "Do you, are you from here?"

01:21:03.730 - 01:21:31.630

(Steven, Photographer) "oh no I'm not from here." No yeah but there's no way you don't remember but just farms where they were that farm was in that was that was not Durham you know where Durham was the Durham city limit is you cross 85 and go up that bad hill I was telling you about when they used to go that's where Durham city limit started I used to stop right there

01:21:32.590 - 01:22:05.020

everything else was rural. Yep, we used to go where Duke hospital we called it Little Duke it was the county we should go show cows up there the dairy cow we go show cows right there where the hospital is now that was county a big huge barn right there they cut hay right there where uh North Duke Mall is they was cutting hay right there I mean and where walmart where

01:22:05.020 - 01:22:39.040

Kmart is Kmart right off Avondale yeah Avondale but it's uh they still they still yeah and in Harbor Freight I always wanted to go right there because that guy had a ponies down that road down that road right on the creek ponies down that road and over there Wellons Village, all farmland. Cattle in there. So that's what happened if you don't put a buffer

01:22:40.680 - 01:23:07.680

encroachment it just it's like a creeping fire it's just next thing you know when did this happen so if you put a actual buffer there and said this is it you can halt it for a good while hopefully through two or three more generations hopefully and and the great thing about this we are surrounded by land that's owned by North Carolina State Forest or North Carolina State now they could

01:23:07.680 - 01:23:33.780

sell it could you know of course they could sell it but why wouldn't they don't pay tax on it so North Carolina State owns around 3,000 acres so we do kind of have a buffer and so that big farm I was telling you over there they're in that "Save the farm" that can't be developed. You're talking about the Frank the Frank property? (Rickey Glenn) "Bill McFarland, yeah"

01:23:33.780 - 01:24:10.480

Yeah there's several, I mean I think all but maybe three in Durham County's conservation easement program are in Rougemont. Nice to have something different you know. Go expand South Durham. Let me talk to my buddy he was supposed to give me a ride. Is there anything else either of you want to share or any any final stories or thoughts that

01:24:10.480 - 01:24:41.070

um I didn't ask you about that you wanted to share? No I mean it's amazing to think about what this has come from I mean it is probably the most challenging land in northern Durham County because it grows you see those lovely rocks it grows those so it's very rocky which is probably why people really didn't want it but they made something out of it so hopefully we can keep it

01:24:44.110 - 01:25:27.890

JT did you have any questions you wanted to add at the end but I didn't ask? (James Tabron) I mean so many but... (Cynthia Glenn) "ask away" So so you going to school what was what was going to school like for you? I would really like to know though when that house was really built I really would like to know I can tell you at least according to the research that we have 1850 but you were mentioning earlier

01:25:27.890 - 01:25:56.450

it's earlier yeah which I believe um but I'd be more than happy to do more research for you I was going to offer that um because it's on the it's on the study list so yeah we can talk about that after I'd be happy to do more research but yeah what's what school did you go to? Um Little River, Carrington, and Northern well Old Northern um it's kind of same thing everybody on the bus

01:25:56.450 - 01:26:27.590

was either relatives or friends you know y'all got on the bus it was early and yeah yeah yeah did you were you at Little River when (inaudible reference to a name) went there? I was at the old Little River. I didn't go to the newer one. (Rickey Glenn departs) oh thank you so much great talking to you thank you

01:26:29.130 - 01:27:04.970

all right y'all been working out ain't you oh yeah now my daughters went through Northern they actually went to Old Northern too yes all right it's nice to be out here because my kids had some of the same teachers I did which was really kind of funny but yeah when you so when you look back at this farm life and hearing stories about how

01:27:04.970 - 01:27:32.050

everybody worked together to do everything and you all just had to pull together to get get things done and you know your aunt and everybody could you tell us more about we talked a lot about the more about with the women how the women operated and what they did The same way. The same way literally everybody could do the same thing and did and did

01:27:33.610 - 01:27:57.130

I mean people have the stereotype oh the women stay home and cook and no no everybody else went primed the tobacco cut the corn stack the corn shut the corn and when it was time everybody worked everybody and then a conversation we've had with some other people

01:27:57.130 - 01:28:20.370

you know down time was sort of down time but it wasn't really down time down time was you were working while you were sitting yeah on a fort so you might not have been plowing a field but you might have been shelling peas or something yeah yeah there's something always something to do "Always something to do on the farm," that's what they say always

01:28:24.590 - 01:28:48.410

well yeah we can ask questions forever but uh I think that well did she so I didn't have a point so uh going back to to her growing up the Terry family were they were they uh do you know much about them? Well see she was actually born on Dr. Pearse's farm over on the other side of South Lowell Pearse Wynd where the Pearse Wynd subdivision is on that

01:28:48.410 - 01:29:10.290

that's where she was born and then they sharecroped with the Terry's. Uh the Terry's used to own the dairy farm that's right at the intersection of 501 and Bahama Road right there with the stoplight is yeah um that used to be all of their land and so they had that and then they had the other land and the other areas right up the

01:29:10.290 - 01:29:41.540

hill, John Jones, in that area. Yeah so that was who the Joneses mom's people worked with. Yea and that was another question the importance of the idea of keeping it partly well partly based on the connection plan but then how hard it was to get it you know how um how the money was just saved to actually get it. I mean they literally would just save everything. They did uh the railroad

01:29:41.540 - 01:30:14.770

ties um Papa and Mary had the kids actually working they would sew um loose tobacco bags for some of the manufacturers and you would get paid by the piece and so that's some of the things they would do in the winter time so they did all kinds of things to save money um Mary was a school teacher and she taught some while they you know while they were married and

01:30:14.770 - 01:30:29.530

some of that salary went toward getting the land as well so there was quite a lot going on. Do you know where Mary taught? Rougemont school for I think it was primarily Rougemont school. But she was a graduate of Bennett College.

01:30:34.410 - 01:31:01.830

Did anybody, I mean, you know this is, this is coming from a uh I don't know if I'm a city slicker but uh but you know I look at all these woods and just love being out here but I just think about how easy it would be for me to get lost. If you grow up in it, you know. Um, my dad taught my girls by the time they were four years old they knew every path and every path around here and they could not get lost.

01:31:01.830 - 01:31:26.930

Were there any uh any Native Americans or indigenous people around here do you remember or did you hear any stories? No. I mean it's North Carolina, pretty much they have been pushed outside by that time so you know how that goes. I mean there are some you know not too far in Person County but again a lot of those blended in with the

01:31:26.930 - 01:31:54.590

other communities and things like that and got again pushed out. Were there ever do you remember ever hearing about any any animosity or issues with with local government or the federal government? You know outside of the (tobacco) buyout but any anything happening on sort of a governmental level that caused problems or was an issue? The government basically ignored everybody. I mean there was

01:31:54.590 - 01:32:19.190

you know nothing they I mean you had the farm bureau and different things like that and farm programs and things like that but the most part they didn't have a whole lot to do with anything going around here Well I was going to ask um one of the other and you probably know um David Harris um (Cynthia Glenn) "yeah"

01:32:19.830 - 01:32:47.970

he had mentioned um to me at one point or he it was interesting to talk with him because he said that he was initially skeptical of the Durham County's conservation easement program because he thought it was um similar to a program that the federal government I think in like the 60s and 70s had where there was a surplus of um a surplus of like farm goods in the United States

01:32:47.970 - 01:33:10.430

and so they were um actually like buying or paying farmers to not to farm their land and that was how a lot of um family farms were lost because the younger generation wasn't taught how to farm what there was it was basically a break in the continuum. Well the problem is too a lot of times people don't know what's out there because the government doesn't do a good job of telling

01:33:10.430 - 01:33:34.430

people what's out there as far as programs so. I mean it's that but you know that wasn't really papa's focus so it wasn't a big thing. And then kind of related to that um I guess if you and you you may well I'm sure you know more but uh this was maybe 10 years or so ago but there was a

01:33:37.530 - 01:34:00.050

class action lawsuit I guess around African-American farmers um and they were I guess it was maybe related to FDA loans to you there was there was some some issue with regards to the federal government and discriminating against African Americans? That was that lawsuit that John Boyd brought. Um again, papa strictly felt like you deal in cash you don't have to worry about it.

01:34:00.050 - 01:34:18.830

So you know it didn't really apply to us because it's like you're going to buy something buy it in cash because you probably weren't going to get the loan so that was always his operation: work from cash. How do you store money out here? I mean, he managed to, yeah. (Julianne Patterson) "she's not going to tell you her secrets."

01:34:18.830 - 01:34:44.690

All right, right, right somebody out here digging in the under the cover of darkness looking for for a buried treasure. (Cynthia Glenn) "he managed to save it" I have one more question um do either of you remember the effort to incorporate Rougemont? Back in, what was it? 2011 or something like that?

01:34:44.690 - 01:35:18.390

It wasn't a bad idea but they weren't gonna let that happen. I think county government city government were happy with Durham being the city of the county. So, might have been nice. But no. All right, well then with that I will end the recording it is 4:17 p.m.