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Michelle Lanier: This is Michelle Lanier. Today is Monday, January 19, 2015, and I am interviewing Frankie Perry of Durham, North Carolina. Good afternoon. Frankie Perry: Good afternoon, Michelle. Michelle Lanier: I'd like to start our interview hearing about the first generation in your family to call Durham home, and you shared with me that those were your great-grandparents. Would you introduce them to me and tell me the story of their transition to Durham? Frankie Perry: Sure. My great- grandparents were Osmund Bagley Sr. and Amelia Bagley. They were born in South Carolina, Fairfield County. They lived on a gold mine, which they were sharecropping. I think one of the brothers may have owned some land, but they were asked to leave the land. They came to Durham because they knew that there was a little more profitability in Durham. And they knew that Dr. C. McLester was the pastor of Morehead Avenue Baptist Church. So they came and he assisted them in getting jobs. Most of them got jobs at Duke University in construction, building the chapel. And I think there's a picture somewhere in one of the Durham books of my grandfather, although you only see a portion of him, actually building the chapel. Some of them went into business for themselves, into the barbecue business. And some of them, one of them was actually a past...a preacher. But he was also a crop...a farmer. They all had been farmers and were very good at it. My great-grandfather was a farmer. He never worked at any other business other than farming. Right there on Cornwallis Road here in Durham. They moved, they came to Durham at Lebanon Township, which is out off Guess Road. And all three of the brothers bought property on Cornwallis Road or in that vicinity. They always remained very, very close. So whatever one brother did, the other brother assisted them in doing what they had to do. My grandmother never worked outside of the home—my great-grandmother, Amelia. She was a homemaker, but she did do babysitting for some people that lived over in the Rockwood section. But she always was at home and took care of her children, grandchildren, and great- grandchildren. And even got down to the third, fourth generation of great-great that she would care for. Very, very nurturing person. And I learned a lot from her.

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Michelle Lanier: Can you back up for me for a moment. Which relative worked on the Duke Chapel? Frankie Perry: Osmund Bagley. Osmund and Peter Bagley worked at Duke in construction.They were not actually working for Duke; they worked for a company that contracted with Duke. 00: Michelle Lanier: And Osmand is your?

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Frankie Perry: Great-grandfather. Michelle Lanier: And? Frankie Perry: Peter was my great-great uncle. Tillman was the preacher. Michelle Lanier: And where did he preach?

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Frankie Perry: Pilgrim Baptist Church for one, which is on the corner of Cornwallis and Roxboro Road, and other than that I don't remember exactly where he preached. Somewhere over in Walltown, but I'm not sure of the name of the church. Michelle Lanier: And then the barbecue place, who ran that? Frankie Perry: That was Peter Bagley, and then one of his sons went into the barbecue business. They worked for another company, but they did their own barbecue on the side. And they were very good at it, very, very good at it. And I think the name of the company was Garrett, but I'm not sure. Michelle Lanier: Do you remember eating the whole-hog barbecue?

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Frankie Perry: Absolutely. They would always kill a hog. Well, they killed three hogs in November of every year at my great uncle's house, John Burke. And he lived on Fayetteville Road, where Ivy House is now. That was their property, where the Lowes is. All that property was sold to Lowes by my cousins. But they would kill hogs and that was a big event. And I remember as a child, going in November, we'd be playing in the yard while they are cutting the hogs and they used every part of the hog, every piece of it. And they would always have a barbecue for us while they, you know, were doing all of the work, putting the sausage in the sacks and all of that. It was a full day’s work and then they would always do it on a Saturday, so it was a full Saturday. They were up early in the morning. Michelle Lanier: What did that area look like when you were a child? Frankie Perry: Oh, my goodness. Michelle Lanier: And what was it called at that time? Did it have a name?

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Frankie Perry: It was the country (laughs). Because it was, the street was called Pine Street. That was the cross section, which is now Roxboro, but that street used to be called Pine. I remember as a child walking from, we lived on South Street. That's where I was born. We lived on South Street and you'd just walk down South and you turn right onto Roxboro which used to be Pine Street, and it was about two miles to my grandmother’s. We would walk; everywhere you went you walked. We didn't ride, except we did ride the bus on occasion. The city bus would stop at what is now called Mutual Heights, and then you walked down Cornwallis Road. Cornwallis Road was a dirt road. A single lane for a horse and buggy, and I, I, you know, as a child, would go to town with my great-grandfather, downtown Durham on the horse and the wagon. And it was, when I look back on it now, it was very exciting. Very exciting. Michelle Lanier: What would you all be doing in town? What would you be doing in downtown Durham? Frankie Perry: On Saturday, that's the day that everybody went downtown. My grandparents would always have chicken on Sunday, because they raised chickens. But my great-grandfather loved beef and he would go to the market every Saturday and buy a beef roast. Every Saturday. I can't tell you where he got the money, but he did that every Saturday. Of course we had all the vegetables because they farmed. So we didn't have to have that, but he always wanted to have that because every Sunday, Dr. McLester and his wife Johnnie B. McLester would come to my great-grandparents’ house Sunday for dinner. And even if he came by himself and didn't stay, they always fixed his food and his wife's food. That was every Sunday, I remember as a child. Michelle Lanier: And who did all this cooking?

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Frankie Perry: My great-grandmother, and her children because she had a lot of children still at home, or in the area. Michelle Lanier: Would you look forward to certain dishes? Frankie Perry: Oh, my goodness. Fried chicken on Sunday morning? Oh, my goodness! With biscuits and gravy and grits (laughs). And then you go to Sunday school. Michelle Lanier: Tell me about your memories of church and Sunday school.

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Frankie Perry: Oh, wonderful memories. Dr. McLester and Mrs. Johnnie McLester, the leaders at Morehead Avenue Baptist Church just prior to my birth, they were at Second Baptist, which is now First Cavalry Baptist Church. But they split and Dr. McLester went down the hill and they stayed on top of the hill on Morehead Avenue. We were...we loved Sunday school. I looked forward to Sunday school because I would, after having that wonderful breakfast at home, we'd walk from Halley Street, because we lived right in front of Lyon Park School and walked from Halley Street to Morehead Avenue for Sunday school. Right after Sunday school my grandmother would be in church, my great-grandmother would be in church, and she always gave me a handkerchief in church and it had one penny—you know they were tied in the end, and that's my penny to put in church. And I would sit with her and I thought that was the biggest pleasure in the world too sit with my great-grandmother while my mother was singing in the choir. Michelle Lanier: Do you remember some of the community members you’d see as a young person growing up at that church? Frankie Perry: At Morehead? We had....well, let me back up a little bit and say that that was your social life, okay, to go to church, because otherwise you were in school or you worked or whatever. But on Sunday, that was your day that you could go and see all your friends and neighbors and they were in a relaxed mode. Mrs. Mclester was very, very well known in the Durham community and she also taught at Whitted School. By being a teacher, you know, we just flocked to her, you know, whatever she was involved in, she had us involved. We always had cantatas. We had an Easter cantata, a Christmas cantata. Everything that she was involved in, she had us involved. We'd be involved in the young missionaries. We went to a missionary meeting every Sunday to different churches in Durham. We had what is called BTU and that was a bible training union. That was every Sunday at six o'clock. When I became more of a teenager, that was my real social time. It was the only time I could see boys, was to go BTU and they, they came because they wanted to see the girls. So it was really a great, great time. One of my best friends and who remains one of my best friends is Barbara Richmond. And I met her when I was in third grade at Lyon Park. She was a member. Her grandparents were members. Her mother lived in New York, but her grandparents, she lived with her grandparents, her grandmother. And she and I were friends and still remain friends. Which is over, whatever the number of years, we're the same age, too. But that is where we developed all of our social relations was at church. And Mrs. McLester was a stickler for etiquette, proper etiquette. She was a stickler for speaking well. She was an activist, but she didn't know it. (laughs) That's where I first met Benjamin, Ben Ruffin, was, he was a member of the church. His mother was a member. He was a little older than I am. He and my sister are the same age, and they were very good friends. But I would always tag along because I'd always want to hear grown folks’ conversation. That's always been something I've loved to hear ‘cause they have so much knowledge and I wanted to hear what they had to say. But, Ben and I became very good friends after he had graduated and he was an activist and all of that and he was working for the governor, as a special assistant to the governor. But he never, ever, forgot his West End roots. He never did. Whenever, West End would always have a reunion, every year. He always came back, and he always wanted to know… He had the newspaper delivered to him in Winston Salem because he always wanted to know who had died in Durham or what was going on in Durham with his people on the West End, and he was always very attentive to them. Michelle Lanier: For people who would be listening to this interview who are unfamiliar with the significance of Ben Ruffin, would you describe who is he?

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Frankie Perry: Sure, sure will. Ben was a...let me just back up and say that because we lived on the West End, that was considered the other side of the track. And that's something that, the railroad track, we were on the other side of that. The West End was supposed to be a place, kind of notorious for not having anyone who’s really smart coming out of the West End. Even in high, school, we were told to take certain courses because we were from the other side of the track. But it took people like professor Frank Alston, who identified the strengths in Ben Ruffin, that he was a leader, a natural leader. And he pushed Ben. He pushed Ben to go to college, his mother also pushed him to go to college. She was very, very progressive, Katherine Ruffin. But she wanted all her children to go to college and she pushed and she worked and she made sure they went. But Ben, Ben and Dr. Howard Fuller, we called him “Jag” Fuller, they were the ones who really started this whole movement. It started, a lot of it started on the West End. But they were fearless. I would have a little bit of tinge of, of, you know, being afraid because I was small and everything else, but he really pushed us, you know, don't be intimidated by anyone, you know. There's a job for everyone somewhere. I mean I knew that I couldn't get out there and do all the picketing and stuff like that because I worked. But he said, you could do some things for us. I did all the copying and did all or some of the layout for some of the flyers and stuff like that, but he pushed everyone. He identified your strength and he pushed you to do it. It was a different time here in Durham. I do have pictures of the Howard Johnson Hotel and that, I don't think that, I know that Ben was involved in that, as well as Dr. Fuller. Michelle Lanier: Are you referring to the desegregation efforts... Frankie Perry: It was desegregation of Howard Johnsons on Chapel Hill Boulevard. They actually closed and tore down that hotel, because they really didn't want to have...they didn't want to have African Americans stay in their hotel. Michelle Lanier: Where would people gather to organize against segregation?

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Frankie Perry: Churches. That was the heart and soul of it. St. Joseph was one of the main churches. White Rock was one of the main churches. In North Durham, the main church was Union Baptist. They would congregate there. On the West End it was First Calvary. We would congregate there to make plans. And I guess that was one of the biggest things for us was that we were organized, and we came together. Back during that time, Michelle, you have to know that no one locked doors. It was not necessary to lock doors. The biggest argument or whatever would usually end with knives. There were no guns. You just, you know, to go to sleep at night during summertime, you'd leave your windows open, your doors open, so you didn't have to worry about that kind of violence. But the people came together. And they, they listened to what the leaders had to say. Ben was sort of on the edge. We had the other people like Shag Stewart and some of the people from North Carolina Mutual who wanted to do it a different way. But Ben and his crew, which developed into a crew, wanted to do it as Martin Luther King was doing it, which was nonviolently, but showing some resistance. So, I wasn't a part of the day to day, but I was part of the backroom planning. Michelle Lanier: Would you share more details? You talk about being one of the backroom supporters, and often with civil rights era of the ‘50s and ‘60s and ‘70s, we don't hear as much detail about those folks—the folks like you. How did you come to get involved? Frankie Perry: Ok, Hillside High School and North Carolina Central University, the leaders there were very supportive of what we were doing. They wanted to make sure we were doing it in a nonviolent manner, so pretty much they became our supervisors. If you stop and think about it, they, they knew they didn't want us out there, they didn't want us to get into trouble because we were high school, but they allowed us to run copies on that old machine that you had to crank and run them out, mimeograph machines, I think is what they called it. But you would set it up and that's how we ran copies and we were able to distribute flyers for the cause. The teachers were very supportive, so they guided us through it. They didn't allow us to get out and do something that was kind of stupid. But, and they would, they would allow us to be trained in nonviolence. Because at that time, people would spit on you or, you know, use whatever methods they wanted to use on you, but they would show you how to resist that. I didn't really get involved in the front line because I didn't think I would be able to resist it, but we had a lot of support. Michelle Lanier: So you made a choice to be...

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Frankie Perry: My mother made a choice for me. (laughs) My mother did not want anything to happen to me, because in my family, I had one other cousin who had gone to college. I was considered what they called back in the day, “Frankie's smart.” That's what they would say, because when I was four years old I was reading, well, they thought I was reading. I had memorized everything from when they had read it to me before. So I, could sort of go back and tell them what it was, particularly the Bible and stuff like that. And because of that my mother wanted me to excel. She did not want me to work as she had to work, three different jobs to maintain a lifestyle. And she figured if I was an educated person, I could maintain a lifestyle. She was also looking out for her old age, too. She wanted someone who could help take care of her. Which is fine. I love that, that's very wise to me. That was a very wise thing. But because of that she did not want me to have a record, a police record of any sort. So it was important to her that I, that I...because I wanted to do something, but she was the one who guided me that right way to do it so I would not have a record. Michelle Lanier: Do you remember some of the other people who were behind the scenes, making those copies and supporting those on the front line? Frankie Perry: All of the people in the Hillside High School book, my entire class. A lot of the people would be, I know Ora Jamison was part of that, Barbara Richmond and I were both a part of that behind the scenes, kind of working. We would make sure we got it to the different communities. Because we had, Hillside was like a melting pot. It was a feeder, from all the feeder schools that fed into Hillside, and there was always someone from North Durham or West End or Walltown. It was just kind of coordinated without someone telling you to do it. It just worked out that there was always someone there who would take the flyers back to their community and distribute it, so. Michelle Lanier: What kind of information would be on these flyers?

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Frankie Perry: It would tell you about meetings. And I know one of them, and I can't recall, I don't know if I have a copy of it, but one of the flyers, and I don't know who did it, but it talked about some steps that you use for nonviolence, and I don't know who did the publication. I have no idea. But I do remember having that document in hand. Michelle Lanier: Were there marches, sit-ins, demonstrations that you remember either seeing or hearing about that stand out for you? Frankie Perry: I don't remember them, but I know about every one of them. Like the ice cream company, Royal Ice Cream Company. Virginia Williams, who was involved in that. The sit-in at the Woolworth here in Durham was prior to the one in Greensboro. Some of the other places that, there was a shop on Chapel Hill Street that is between Carroll Street and Kent Street. There were businesses along there, some, one was a restaurant and the white people could go in and be seated, but we could only receive food from the, from a window. And Ben and some of the others said, “You know, we're not going to, we're not doing that. We're not going to patronize them and we don't have the privileges.” So that's how we did it. We just stopped going certain places. We just would not support them. And they'd finally go out of business because we were their primary clients. Michelle Lanier: I want to go back a bit and hear you talk about your childhood that gets us to this place where you're really a young adult involved in these activist moments. You shared about your great-grandparents’ generation. Who are the grandparents in Durham? Were they both sides of your family? Or just one? Your grandparents’ generation?

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Frankie Perry: Just one of my grandparents. My grandfather had died in South Carolina. He was actually working for a family and my grandmother did not want to continue to stay in, it was in Rock Hill, South Carolina. So she moved back home with her family. So she was here in Durham. And she really played a real key part in my life growing up. She was not very educated. She worked at Liggett & Myers Tobacco Company, seasonal worker. But she was an excellent cook. She was an excellent presser. She could iron, iron. I didn't get that from her because I don't iron anything, but she ironed anything and it looked just like it was brand new. And she did it very well, and she was a very loving person. I mean, everyone loved her. She was a great, great cook. Michelle Lanier: And what was her name? Where did she live? Frankie Perry: Viola Coleman. Viola Perry Coleman. She lived next door to my great-grandparents on Cornwallis Rd. She always wanted to be close to her mother. That's one of the reasons she left Rock Hill, South Carolina, because she loved family, and she taught us how to love family. Michelle Lanier: Please share what you know about what she did with Liggett & Myers.

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Frankie Perry: Seasonal workers they would, what they call “hand tobacco.” And she had, everyone thought that she had this great vision, that she could see things, you know, before they occurred, because she could tell, she would tell things to people, as you know, and one of the stories that she told me was that she was working at Liggett. She saw a black snake on the floor. She left Liggett and walked from Liggett Myers to South Street because she knew something was wrong with me. She got there, and it was a millipede getting ready to go into my ear. And she walked. She said the black snake was a sign or something. But she told me that, and I've never forgotten it. And I know I was about four years old. Michelle Lanier: For people who don't know what “tying a hand of tobacco” is, how can you describe that verbally? Frankie Perry: I've never, I've never had to do that but “handing tobacco” is when it comes in, they sort it, and then they put a string around it and they hang it up. So that's what they call a “handing tobacco,” I guess. But she would only work, you know, they would only do it at the end of the season, after they brought the tobacco in. So it was a seasonal job, she never worked, other than in domestic work. But she was very good at it. Michelle Lanier: And then with domestic work, did you have exposure to some of the class divides within Durham?

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Frankie Perry: Oh, yes. Michelle Lanier: Just seeing life through her lens. I don't know if you feel comfortable sharing any of that. Frankie Perry: I guess I saw more the domestic, the differences with my mother's generation. My mother was a very hard worker. She worked with different families in Durham as well as she worked at Duke University in the dining room for many years. She did go to school. She got, she finished high school at Hillside, but she got, she took a course as a CN and she got a job at Chapel Hill. She worked in the Burn Center for 26 years. She was really. They loved her. The children loved her. She had a passion for people who could not help themselves. And a lot of that was influenced, she influenced me that way. But in the hospital at that time, they had segregated wards. But because of her care, they would take her from one section over to the other, because she was just that good. She was very good. But she did, she had a lot of influence on me, an awful lot. She would go work parties for white people, and she was good at that because she had such a pleasant personality. She knew how to get what she needed from people, and her way of doing it was through kindness. And she knew that she was being slighted. She knew it, it was a personal affront. But that was her impetus to push me so I would not have to do it. And she really got that in my head. She really planted that seed in my head. Michelle Lanier: So we've met Amelia...

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Frankie Perry: Amelia's my great- grandmother. Michelle Lanier: Viola. Frankie Perry: Viola's my grandmother, and Arlene, E-a-r-l-i-n-e, Earline's my mother, was my mother. She died in 1997. But she was a nurse ‘til the very end. She took care of everyone. She even took care of her ex-husband, who had open heart surgery, and she changed his dressings every night. Day and night. Michelle Lanier: So as we watch the generations of women in Durham, we start with a farmer's wife and family caretaker, caregiver. And then her daughter, Viola, does both domestic work as well as seasonal work with tobacco. And then we have some nursing.

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Frankie Perry: Through my mother. Michelle Lanier: Through your mother, and what is your career path? Frankie Perry: My career wass, of course I graduated from Hillside High School. When I graduated, this is a nice story. I like telling this story, because it's about Professor Alston. When I graduated my mother went to... Michelle Lanier: I'm sorry, would you say who Professor Alston was to you at this time?

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Frankie Perry: When I get to the story, I surely will. I apologize for that. But when I graduated I wanted to go to college. I wanted to go to Bethune Cookman because my great aunt in New York served on their board and she was going to get me a full scholarship to Bethune Cookman. My mother said, “I don't know anything about Daytona Beach, Florida.” That's too many states over. You need to stay here. So I said, just out of the blue, I want to go to UNC. That was my thing to go to UNC since high school, if I couldn't go to Bethune Cookman. But they did not allow women to come in as freshman. So this was June, 7th or 8^(th), just before graduating, and Professor Alston was one of those, when I was in high school—I was in the 12^(th) grade—he was a really good, good, they called him professor, but he was a regular teacher. Assistant principal. But he would always identify students who had the potential, but did not have the wherewithal, and I was in…one of my advisers, Edith King, told me that I needed to take typing classes and I needed to take secretarial things because she said, “You're from the other side of the tracks and you won't amount to anything.” Well, that pushed me to work even harder; it really did. But I don't know whether that conversation was held somewhere else, and Professor Alston came to my typewriting class and said, “Perry,” he beckoned for me to come. And I walked, and I was afraid because anytime the profes...he came to you were in trouble. You were in trouble if something was going on. But he told me to come out of the classroom, so I went out of the classroom. He said, “Why are you in this class?” I told him Ms. Edith King had put me in the class and he said, “You come with me.” He took me to chemistry class. He said, “You take chemistry courses...these are the courses you are going to take.” He gave me chemistry—I had already taken biology—chemistry—he had me into an algebra II class, because I'd taken, I'd already had algebra I, but I didn't take algebra II. He said, “You are going to take an advanced English,” which I did. But I loved English anyway so there was no problem. And then I had history, and advanced history class. He said, “You need to have these before you go to college.” It got down to the last week of school, just about to graduate, and he said, “Perry, where are you going to go to college?” and I told him where I wanted to go. He said, “Well, that's fine,” but I think it was like August the 25^(th), 1964. He called my mother on the phone because he knew she had gone to Mechanics and Farmers Bank to get a loan for me to go to college, and she told him that she was not able to get the loan because she didn't have sufficient collateral to do it, and he told her, “Don't worry about it, I can get her into Bennett College. I'll get her the money. You get her prepared to go to school.” August the 30^(th), I had a full scholarship, I had room and board, everything. My mother took me to Bennett College. After that, of course I had to, you know began to pay for it, because it was just for one-year scholarship. But that was enough to get me in and to keep me there. My other family members, including my grandparents, would send me stamps. They couldn't really give me any money, but they sent me stamps. My next door neighbor, from the West End, would always, when I came home, which wasn't that often, she'd have a little goodie bag for me, agoodie box, so I wouldn't have to worry about food. She would have Vienna sausage, peanut butter and jelly and stuff like that. ‘Cause she knew my mother couldn't afford, you know, to buy stuff for me. Or sometimes she would just send it in the mail. And getting something in the mail when you're in college is a lot, it means a lot. But I had people that took care of me that way. They didn't have to give me money, but they gave me things that I needed. When I would go home, because my neighbor worked at a laundry, she would take all my clothes and launder them or have them dry cleaned for me, at no cost to me. So just helped all along. I stayed at Bennett College for two years and I was able to transfer to Carolina. Carolina back in the 60s was nothing like it is today. The, they were not quite ready for integration. And the reason I say they were not ready, the students were okay with it, but the professors were not ready. They had not been sensitized that all people are the same. And they felt like that because we were, the 70 pioneers were black, that we were inferior. And I guess for me, it probably hit home more because I took the social studies classes, I took sociology and psychology and classes like that, which were, they taught southern history, or southern sociology. And it was always about the denigration of our race. They never, they never had anything positive to say about it. I was in one class, and I don't mind saying his name, Rupert Vance—he was the grandson of one of the governors of North Carolina. He was really disfigured, but he had a brilliant mind. But he never could call my name. He would never call my name. I would raise my hand, he would never call my name. He would, if he acknowledged me if I raised my hand to answer a question, he would call me a “Nigra,” n-i-g-r-a. And he referred to me often as that “nigra” in the classroom, and it was accepted. And it was just, that was a difficult time for me, but I was able to get over that, too, because I'd come home and tell my mother—I didn't live on campus, I lived at home—and I would come home and tell my mother and she'd encourage me, “Well, that's the way people are, you just get back in there. You're going for an education. You're not going for a popularity contest.” So I had to suck it up and go back in. Michelle Lanier: How did you deal with the pain of that? I hear your mother say, “Just keep moving.” Did you have peers that you could talk to? What would you do to deal with that internally? Frankie Perry: I had peers in my senior year. Herbert Dark, who was a teacher at Hillside. He taught Spanish. Herbert Dark and Ms. Keerse ??? who was from North Durham, and Algan Holloway with Holloway Funeral Homes. Algan and I were classmates from Hillside and we were all at Mrs. Keerse and Herbert Dark were getting their masters, and we were getting our undergraduate, Algan and myself. We got together, so we'd ride together in the summertime, because whoever could come up with transportation, we would all walk to wherever it was so we could all meet at the one location and get a ride to Chapel Hill. We have even walked to Chapel Hill, you know. It wasn't a big deal back then. You just walked. Everyone walked. But we would get together and anytime I would have any kind of issues, I would discuss it with Herbert Dark, who was quite loquacious. If there was something on his mind, he would tell you. You didn't have to wonder. And he would always talk about having to bridle his tongue and having to tone down the way, that, you know, that he talked to people at UNC, because he couldn't do it over there the way he had done it at Hillside. You know, you just talk to people because they're your people. But having to deal with the white population, he had to really do a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, as most people did. You had one face for, for the school, another face for your family. Michelle Lanier: Do you have recollections of, I'd love to hear more about your experience at UNC, and then I want to make sure we come back to Durham for the purposes of this interview. Do you have recollections of professors or even staff at UNC who were supportive?

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Frankie Perry: Absolutely. The kitchen staff in the cafeteria, the ladies there were wonderful. They knew that a lot of us didn't have money to buy food, and they would find a way to give us a sandwich or something because they knew we didn't have extra money. And they'd give us some soda or something and they, you know, they just took care of us. The janitorial staff in the, ‘cause most of my classes were in, I had two classroom buildings, and I always got to know the janitorial staff. And they would always, if it was bad weather or whatever, they would always make sure that I, when I got off the bus going between Durham and Chapel Hill, that when I got off the bus, there'd be someone to pick me up to bring me on campus, and they'd make sure I'd get back to the bus station. And that was on them. That was not something they had to do. They were just nice, nice people. Michelle Lanier: That's quite moving. Frankie Perry: They were sweethearts, I'm telling you. They knew what we were going through. They knew the struggle, and, but they were just so proud of us, you know, for trying it, you know, until they felt that they had to do their part. And that was their part. Michelle Lanier: So you go from Hillside to Bennett to UNC. Do you remember graduation?

00:41:39.540 - 00:42:13.340

Frankie Perry: I do. I did not graduate. I have a degree, but I did not march. And the reason I did not march was because I couldn't afford it. So I don't, I was not there for the actual graduation, but I do, I do know some that did graduate. But I couldn't afford it, bottom line. Michelle Lanier: And there were 70 of you? Frankie Perry: 70 pioneers. Michelle Lanier: Do you get together with them sometime?

00:42:13.340 - 00:45:33.790

Frankie Perry: We do. We have an online chat. We had a meeting in 2011, at Dillard’s Barbecue, so I got to see some of the classmates that I...back during that time what you have to realize is that you didn't really see that many African Americans unless you were in classes with them, unless you lived on campus, because they had, you know, your classes were all spread out, and if you did see someone, immediately you'd run up to them, start talking to them, get their name, everything, where you're from, whatever, for your limited time because you had to run to another class. But we had our little meeting at Dillard's Barbecue, that was the time we could really fellowship and we could talk about our experiences at UNC. Michelle Lanier: So what was next for you after graduating? Frankie Perry: After graduating, I taught school in Nash County. I taught at Maude B. Hubbard Elementary School. I had not taken teaching courses but I took the exam, the National Teacher's Exam, passed with flying colors, so I could teach. I loved it, I absolutely loved it. Always, when I was a child, I always played like I was a teacher, so that was just a natural for me. And I think my second year I was made the science teacher of the year. Science was not my subject, but if you have a passion you can do anything, teach anything. And the thing with the students there, that I did more of the learning than they did because they taught me so much about farming. They taught me, you know, when I first started, I wondered why kids would be there in the morning, they'd be gone in the afternoon. And then some would come in the afternoon and wouldn't be there for morning. And then I found out that the kids farmed, so they could not be there. But the one thing I did do was to go and meet every parent, so I could meet every student and every parent, you know, to learn some things about them so I'd know how to treat them. Because I couldn't put my ways in of just saying, “Okay, you have to be here at 8 o'clock in the morning for classes.” They had something that they had to do. They had to work the farm. But while they were at school, I did everything I could extra to catch them up. And that made a difference to them, but also made a huge difference to me. I felt really, really good when I found out that one of my students, who, I pushed him a lot, I pushed him an awful lot, but I didn't think he was going to really do well. He ended up getting a PhD from Boston College (laughs). And one of the few that had gone to college from that area. So I felt really, really good about that. And I often brag on that because that was really the highlight. Michelle Lanier: So I am going to fast forward a little bit. What brought you back to Durham?

00:45:36.870 - 00:51:16.490

Frankie Perry: My mother and stepfather both were ill, and my baby sister who is 11 years my junior needed to have someone to take care of her. So I came back to Durham, and I worked for Buddy Malone, attorney, and William Pearson. Loved them to death. I really learned a lot from them. I worked as a secretary for them. Then I started work at the National, started Central Carolina Bank as a teller here at Forest Hills. Loved the job. One of the people from the National Laboratory for Higher Education would come to my drive-through window and I would talk to her all the time, just make conversation, very pleasant and everything. And she says, “Tell me something about yourself, Frankie.” And I told her a little bit of my history. She said, “Would you be interested in working in educational research?” I said, “I'd love it.” So she helped me get a job at the National Lab for Higher Education at North Carolina Mutual, the North Carolina Mutual Building. I worked there for three years and wrote an annotated bibliography of higher education topics. I still have that. It was published, but I did not sign over the copyright, so they really could not distribute it; it was published for internal use only. But I really delighted in doing that document. I have, I do have a copy of that. Left, stayed there for three years as a project assistant and then under President Nixon, he did not like social programs, so he cut the funding to a lot of these programs and that one got hit, and, of course, I lost my job, but at the same time I was working part time for Dr. Robert E. King as his medical transcriber. And when I lost the job there, I was working with him pretty much full time for about two weeks and then he said, “Frankie, why don't you talk to those people at Wachovia Bank?” And he never said “Wachovia;” he said Wachauvia Bank. He said, “I have a trust with them. Why don't you go talk tothem?” and he said, I'll talk to them, and get an interview for you. He did that and I was hired back in 1973. And I stayed there for 40 years. (laughs) Enjoyed my career with the bank. That's where I met John Hope Franklin and a lot of people, the Kennedys, and settled the estates of many people, so I got to know their families and different generations. I still have great contacts with my clients, and I still call them my clients because we were friends more than clients. I became more of a confidante to them then their own family because they could tell me things that they couldn't express with their family and they wanted to be sure that their estates were going to be settled properly. I did that. I had a great career. I loved it. I absolutely loved it. And I rose from a trust assistant when I was hired to a senior vice-president when I retired, because I was always determined. I wanted to know stuff. And I did, at the bank, I wrote an operations manual. It was way back in the days. I wrote an operations manual and, from that, the bank really appreciated that. That came from Winston- Salem and they really appreciated what I'd done until they instituted and did their own based on the stuff that I had put together just doing my job. But had some very good people I worked with at the bank. They saw my talent, they recognized it, and they promoted me. Michelle Lanier: What did you like best about working, and this is at Wachovia where you became a senior vice-president? What did you like best about that work? Frankie Perry: I loved the families with whom I worked. They were fantastic, and I still have relationships with them now. I had one family in particular that I knew more about the grandchildren. The grandchildren would call me, the children would call me rather than calling their parents. They wanted, their contact was with me. I knew everything about them. They were very, very good people...good to me. They made me feel very good about what I was doing to help them. They always said thank you, no cross words or anything like that. On a lot of situations they would tell me that I kept some families together, because they could not unload on the children or other relatives. They could unload on me, and I’d try to help them find a solution around it. Loved that to death. Michelle Lanier: This year as you know is the 100^(th) anniversary of John Hope Franklin's birth. And I know that he is someone that is very dear to you. Would you describe how you all came to know each other and your relationship?

00:51:23.790 - 00:56:17.610

Frankie Perry: At the bank I had, I was working with Maceo Sloan Sr. I had settled his wife's estate. Maceo was ill and I hired sitters for him so that he could stay in his home. And the word got around, if anyone, you know, needed always call Frank. You need something, call Frankie at Wachovia. She'll get what you need. So I had sitters for him, and then Aurelia became ill. John Hope called me on the phone and said he had gotten my number from Maceo and wanted to know if I could come by and talk with him about getting sitters. And I said, “Who?” He said, “This is John Hope Franklin.” I said, “Okay,” and I didn't believe it, because he was famous. I knew of him because I had always read of him. And I said, “He's calling me and asking me, you know, to help him.” I went right up to his house once I found it. You know, it was hard to find. Went to his house. Met with him. Became fast friends with him. He was a delightful person. I was his go-to person. I became very indispensable to him for finances. Assisted him in getting care for Aurelia. He and I both went to all the nursing homes and interviewed the staffs and he settled on Britthaven in Chapel Hill. I think one of the reasons, I think Kenan Rand, one of the Kenans’ mother was there, so he felt like that was a pretty good place. But he visited her every day that he was in town. If he was not in town he had someone to go visit her every day. He was very attentive to her, very loving, very loving. But my relationship with him became, I just hung on every word that he said, of course. And when he was doing his, whenever he would do a book, he would come to my office and we'd sit down and he'd tell me about the book or he'd tell me about where he'd been, the people with whom he had spoken, and I told him, I said, “You know, John Hope, I'm just living vicariously through you. I've seen the whole world through your eyes, you know.” And that always delighted him. It always did. And then I've maintained a very good relationship with Karen and John, even after the death of John Hope. So we are still very, very close. Michelle Lanier: So it sounds like you have been involved with many facets of Durham community from the eyes of a child to a senior-ranked member of Wachovia. I see that you're wearing a shirt that says North Carolina Central University and I know that you have a very special relationship to that institution. Can you talk about your relationship to Central and maybe how it's evolved over time? Frankie Perry: Sure. Being from Durham, I did not want to go to school in Durham. But after I started working at the bank, at Wachovia, they offered educational reimbursement, so I wanted to take advantage of that. It's learning. So I took 32 hours in school of business and developed such a love for that university. I mean, an absolute love. I never miss football games. I never miss, well I miss more basketball games, but I never miss football games. And I was walking into the stadium one Saturday and James Ammons, who was the chancellor there, of course, I had met with him in the past and he said, “Frankie, I want you to consider coming on the foundation board.” And I said, “Well, you know, I will think about it. Let me talk to the people at the bank to make sure there's no conflict.” And so I came on the board, as a board member, and then a year later became the president and been at that position ever since. But that's...I'm going to roll off next year. I stayed on an additional three years because we had some things that we needed continuity. But I love that university. I absolutely love it. Michelle Lanier: How long total would your service as chair be once you come off?

00:56:17.910 - 00:57:51.680

Frankie Perry: It will be 12 years. Michelle Lanier: What has that been like? What kinds of things have you... Frankie Perry: It will be 11 years, I'm sorry. 11 years. The kinds of things. If you're familiar with universities, often time university foundations get into trouble, so you need to have the separation of duties for the university and the foundation. The foundation holds the 501c3, so they have to be very, very careful about gifts because all of that is under the auspices of the government. So in the foundation we have to be very, very careful that we're not mixing and comingling funds. So you have to have your own staff. You have to have someone who knows what's going on. And at the time we just did not have that. So I've kind of hung in there just to keep the foundation together. We had to have someone from outside to take, to have that kind of objective, away from the university, because you don't want the university to get in trouble by using the foundation. So I've sort of just stayed on for continuity. Now I feel like we are on very good footing, and it can roll, it can run by itself. Michelle Lanier: What do you love about North Carolina Central University?

00:57:52.520 - 01:00:02.520

Frankie Perry: I love the spirit. The alumni love their school. I mean, they absolutely love it. I went to a basketball game in Norfolk on Saturday with some of the alumni. And these are people, some of them are on walkers, and some of them are on canes, but they got on their bus to go to follow their team. And whether the team is losing or winning they, the alumni is very, very strong, very supportive, and that's something I really, I miss that, because I didn't get that at UNC. And then they're more nurturing of the, the alumni love the school. They love their...they love giving back. And that means a lot to me. Michelle Lanier: What has been important to you to, I guess to do as a leader, as a chair you're in a strong leadership role. What types of leadership characteristics have you really had to use in this work as chair? Frankie Perry: I've been fortunate that we've had a good staff so that my work is very minimal. We have an excellent board. We did work very hard to select board members who are dedicated, who've had some tie-in to the university. Or if they don't have a tie-in they have, they have an affiliation either with either their job or wherever that can assist the university, because we recognize there is a great need for scholarships at our HBCUs, because they're not receiving the state funding. North Carolina's changed their whole funding structure some years ago and because of that you really have to have a really good relationship between your university and your foundation to make sure we are getting scholarship money. That's where I found that the alumni will do anything for those students because they know that someone helped them when they were there. Michelle Lanier: I understand you are a big sports supporter.

01:00:02.800 - 01:00:10.600

Frankie Perry: Love it! Michelle Lanier: You said you do not miss a football game. Frankie Perry: No. Michelle Lanier: I can imagine you are front and center with the Aggie-Eagle Classic.

01:00:11.160 - 01:01:30.220

Frankie Perry: I'll be there. Yes. Yes, yes. I'm always there. Always there. Michelle Lanier: So when did that start for you, making sure that you were so loyal to be at the games? Frankie Perry: When I returned to Durham in 1973, I've been to, I started going to football games in 1973 when I came back to Durham and I have not stopped. I'm a season ticket holder and one thing, I really use that for, I used the games and things like that for business purposes at Wachovia because I was able to invite people—it was dual—I invited people to the campus for a game, and they also got to know people on campus because they were introduced to a lot of different people. But they also helped my relationship at the bank, it solidified. I was able to get customers, to get clients, just from going to a football game, inviting them to something that wasn't related to trying to get your business and it turned out I did get their business. So I used it as a business tool as well as a fun time. Michelle Lanier: So your work with Wachovia ended when?

01:01:32.320 - 01:03:47.400

Frankie Perry: 2011. Michelle Lanier: 2011. How do you spend your time these days? Frankie Perry: Ok, all of my career I have been a volunteer, and I feel that is so very important. I've served on different boards. I now serve on the Executive Services Board, Executive Services Corps, and that is a group that assists nonprofits in five or six different areas, but it’s for leadership and things of that nature. It's an actual training. It's a volunteer organization and I do a lot of the work that they do because all of the counselors providing the services are volunteer. They do not, there is not a charge to them, but the agency, the Executive Services Agency charge individuals based on their ability to pay, and that has always interested me, to do something for others and not expect a pay check in return. So I'm involved in that. I'm very active in my church, which is Morning Star Missionary Baptist Church. I, of course, am a volunteer at NCCU every, once a week. I have three clients with whom I consult. And now I'm going to be working with one of my colleagues that I've worked with in the past, who is a, who was a sports agent. So working with people to get their estate plans together is very important and a lot of it I do as mission work. I do help with their estate planning and there's no charge because I feel like African Americans should have the same kind of planning as our counterparts and they don't have because of lack of knowledge. So that's something I can do—I can give back. Michelle Lanier: I notice that, if I did the math right, 1964 Hillside Hornet. That's your class.

01:03:47.500 - 01:03:54.220

Frankie Perry: Yes. Michelle Lanier: You all just had a big anniversary. Frankie Perry: We did. 50^(th). Our 50^(th) year. Michelle Lanier: How was that? What happened? What did you all do?

01:03:56.080 - 01:05:44.060

Frankie Perry: It was so exciting. We pretty much relived, we relived high school. We had—it was just so creative, some of the people in class—we had name badges with pictures of us when we were in high school. Not the picture of uss right now. Which was extremely helpful because if you'd not seen people in 50 years, you change. But that, it was a fun weekend. We had, it was amazing. We had over 120 people that came back out of a class of 384, which was unheard of, amazing. We had the, a banquet. We had just a weekend of just getting together. We had a church service on Sunday before leaving, and it was, to me it was amazing that all of these people that I knew from high school who were fun loving and partying all the time, and now they knew more about scriptures and everything else and I felt like, wow, these people have done well. But we really found out that there were several ministers in our class. Those who I never thought would be a minister. And the different careers of people, and there was not one person there who had not attained something, which is really biblical because we all have talents. And that just showed it, because they all were, most of them were successful and retired. Just like I am. Michelle Lanier: So I’m kind of winding back in time where we started. You would have been in high school when Martin Luther King was assassinated. Frankie Perry: No, I was not in high school. Michelle Lanier: You were...

01:05:44.060 - 01:06:37.720

Frankie Perry: I was teaching school. Michelle Lanier: You were teaching school in Nash County. Frankie Perry: In Nash County. But I was in Raleigh for a national teacher's convention at the Raleigh Memorial Hall. We were in there. Dr. E. B. Palmer was actually speaking at that time, and somebody walked on the stage—it was a conference, and we'd been there, it started on Thursday, we started Wednesday, and it was supposed to end on Sunday. Someone came across the stage and gave him a note and he announced and he asked us to leave out of Raleigh because they were beginning to throw bottles, just a riot. So we were able to get out of Raleigh and good thing we didn't' have to come to Durham. We actually went the opposite way back to Rocky Mount. Michelle Lanier: And why do you say good thing you didn't have to come to Durham?

01:06:37.940 - 01:07:01.620

Frankie Perry: Because it was my understanding after talking to my mother on the phone that the people were rioting. That they were, you know, it was getting a little out of hand. It was getting violent. Michelle Lanier: And the conference that you were attending, was it the North Carolina Association of Educators? Frankie Perry: It was not called Association of Educators? Yeah. Michelle Lanier: Was it before or after...

01:07:01.620 - 01:07:33.000

Frankie Perry: After that...NCTA. The North Carolina Teachers Association. It was a conference. Michelle Lanier: And what I was referring to was there was a time when there was a black teacher's association. Frankie Perry: That's it—the NCTA. And then the NEA. So you had two separate ones. This was the black conference. Michelle Lanier: So I'm curious again, going back in time a little bit. What were the schools that you went to before you went to Hillside?

01:07:38.680 - 01:08:28.350

Frankie Perry: I started at Whitted School, the old Whitted School, first, second grade. Then we moved to West End so I went to Lyon Park School from the third grade through the sixth grade. I went back to Whitted for junior high school for seven, eight, and nine, and then went on to Hillside for the 10^(th), 11^(th), and 12th. It was not 9^(th), 10^(th), 11^(th,) it was 10^(th), 11^(th), and 12^(th) then. But I'm still a Hornet and an Eagle. Michelle Lanier: What were some memories you have of the community? You call your community West End. Frankie Perry: That's right. Michelle Lanier: That's what you refer to your community as. What were your memories?

01:08:31.150 - 01:12:08.720

Frankie Perry: My memories of the West End was...well, the first one is that when we first moved to the West End, didn't know anyone, but because of the proximity to the school, right across the street, I was able to meet a lot of people. There was a playground right next to my house. So I was able to interact more with the people from the West End. But the one thing I found out, they were very, very close-knit people. They didn't take too much to outsiders (laughs). But because we were in school and other kids, you know, knew us, then it made it easier for us to become a part of the West End. With the school right across the street, of course, you know I became a teacher's pet immediately, because I was always in and out of school. But I loved school. I mean I just absolutely loved school. I wanted to always excel. I remember in fifth grade, Mr. Battle was my teacher, and I was working on a project in the back of the room with some other students, and he was teaching the class. He was teaching on how to use there, t-h-e-r-e and t-h-e-i-r. And he used a sentence and I was supposed to be working on a project separate over here, but no one could answer the question, could answer him, they couldn't get it right. No one got it right. So I raised my hand, and he called on me and I had, I got it correct. I shall never forget that moment because he said, “If you had gotten this wrong and you were not doing what I had asked you to do, I was going to send you to the principal's office.” Well, that scared me to death. But I have never forgotten what, how to spell there, and when to use it...and t-h-e-i-r. Never forgot it. And he taught us homonyms, synonyms. That's where I really got my foundation was in fifth grade. Michelle Lanier: Do you remember playing games in the neighborhood or having social time? I know you said church was social time. Were there other ways you all were... Frankie Perry: Oh, yes. In the summertime, when we got old enough that we did not have to go to our great grandmother's for the summer—we could stay at home by ourselves. Of course, we had chores. This is before we could even begin to work, before we became teenagers, we had chores. But pretty much we would get up early and get our chores out of the way, then you play all day long, with neighbors, you know, that you had, your friends. And there was a ballpark and a little recreation center that they built later. The ballpark, they always had softball games. Softball games was the biggest thing going back then. Because they'd have a game and then you could go sit on the bleachers or seats or whatever you had there then or sit on the hill. We didn't have the bleachers at that time. You could sit on the hill and watch the baseball game. But there were boys there, so you could always talk to boys there too (laughs). That was our socialization process, but you could not, you could not date. And you know, anything you did you had to sneak and do it. But you could not date until, at that time we couldn't date until you were 16. Michelle Lanier: Where did you all live before you moved to the West End?

01:12:09.200 - 01:12:40.910

Frankie Perry: On South Street, 1619 South Street. Michelle Lanier: What did you call that community at that time? Frankie Perry: It was...I don't know what the name of the community is because it was right down the street from NCCU and right there by Spaulding. They built Spaulding Elementary long after I had gone. But I don't know the name of that community. Michelle Lanier: Do you as a child remember black business owners...and going in to, to get things that you needed?

01:12:41.470 - 01:16:51.410

Frankie Perry: Yes, I do. Yes. Our treat when we got older was to be able to go to the movies on Pettigrew Street, to the theater. And there was a Biltmore Hotel there. There was a donut shop. You could get everything that you wanted right there. The black businesses were flourishing. You could get a hotel, the Biltmore Hotel. They had a drugstore. These were all black owned, all black owned. And at that time, we really supported our black businesses. I mean, you know, we went to the movie theater, you could get a hot dog and a drink for 25 cents and you could stay in the movies all day long. You did not have to leave. You know, they didn't put you out at the end, when one movie is over, trying to collect more money. It was not about that. It was really for you to go and socialize and watch a movie and that's...and they always had the newsreels and stuff like that on there. You learned a lot back then. You know, it was always, everything was a learning experience if you took it. But I used to love to go to the movies on Saturdays. The movie was 10 cents. And that's where you meet all your friends too. Michelle Lanier: Is there anything else you would like to share about Durham that stands out in your mind about the history of this place? Frankie Perry: I, I'm often asked, you know, “Where are you from?” and I say, “I'm from Durham.” “Well, no one is from Durham.” “Well, yes, I'm from Durham and I love Durham.” I say I've had the opportunity to live other places, but I chose to be here. The one thing I love about it is because there's such a cross-section of people. I remember Durham when it was like, when it was very segregated. One people lived on one side, other people lived on another, and you didn't mix the two at all. You had your separate swimming pools, your separate recreation centers and stuff like that. But now, Durham has become a huge melting pot, so you're pretty much forced to get along, to make it, really. You can't have those old way, because there are too many people with other ideas. And if we look at our Asian population, which has increased, people are recognizing that there, you know, all of their different ancestries. And then for me, Durham has that feeling that you can do it. If you want to, to go to something that's different, you can attend different events. There's always something going on here. And it's progressive. We have a progressive mayor. I think the world of Bill Bell. He's done a lot for the city of Durham. And we have a lot...if you look at the makeup of the major players in Durham and a lot of them are African Americans. So it's not been that, you know, it has to be all white, it's based on talent, which is, you know, terrific. That people are hired in positions because of their ability and Duke now has just hired an African American as the head of their medical side, which shows that Duke is, that Durham is progressive, and Duke is progressive. Michelle Lanier: And your family really started out right at Lebanon Township?

01:16:51.410 - 01:17:39.690

Frankie Perry: They started at Lebanon Township. Michelle Lanier: And where is that geographically? Frankie Perry: Lebanon Township is off of, off of Guess Road in Northern Durham. I think Umstead Road is one of the areas. But then, as I said before, they, they were able to buy the property on Pine Street and Cornwallis, and they owned a substantial amount of it, because they used it for farming. But, of course, as you know, as the years went by, you know, they got older and were not farming, they began to sell the land. Michelle Lanier: And what are the biggest differences that you've seen from that time of Lebanon Township?

01:17:41.410 - 01:22:21.840

Frankie Perry: Here's the difference. You know, I have a client who is 97, and he has macular degeneration, so he, he doesn't, you know he can't see. So I have to be the eyes for him, and I told him about all of the new buildings, you know, and all the new apartments, the, like from the ballpark and all of the building in that area, which was, you know, the transformation from the tobacco company. You know we had three different tobacco companies in Durham. And just seeing that go away and replacing that...they've kept the buildings, which is wonderful, but they repurposed everything, and there's a whole different lifestyle related to that repurpose. It's not, you know, the tobacco business, which was, and that's one of the things, too, Michelle, that I do often think about when people say, you know, “Well, the smoking is so bad, you know, we're a City of Medicine.” Yeah, but the money was made from tobacco. That was the life blood. Yes, I appreciate the fact that we don't have to have the lifestyle anymore, but let's not forget the roots of it. A lot of people in Durham became, a lot of African Americans became middle class because they worked at the factory. There was a steady income. You know, they were able to buy homes, things of that nature, automobiles and stuff. So that was the backbone for them. But to see the changes now, you know, just seeing the fact that the tobacco companies have been repurposed, that there's so many apartments in Durham. The downtown area, which for me as a child was just really, you know, that was my life. You know, you could walk from the West End to downtown and I want to share one experience with you I had with Sawyer Moore. It used to be like a little paper company, that kind of thing. Mr. Sawyer would allow me to come to the, to his store, and I'd sit on the floor. He'd let me play with paper dolls. That was my thing. I loved paper dolls. I had to be about seven at that time. And I was, he would let me to play with one book because he knew I couldn't afford it, but he let me play with that one book and I would use only one page. Take, you know, take the clothes off, I'd look cause they'd be pre...you could just punch them out and then I'd just fold them over and make the doll dresses or the coats or whatever he had on that one page. Each time I would go in there, he would give me the same book, until I used the whole book up. It ended up that when I started working at Wachovia Bank, I settled his estate. And I tell you what, before he died, I did tell him what that meant to me. That the fact is, that he knew I didn't have money, but he knew I would come in there and I always wanted to look at some books or whatever, but he would let me have that one book and he would pull it out from underneath the counter. It was intended for me. And I do recall one Saturday that I was there and Doris Duke came in with her fur coat on and her blue jeans. They weren't called blue jeans, they were called cover, overalls, overalls at that time. She had on a fur coat and overalls, and she whisked in and I was down on the floor and I looked up and saw that combination. It was not who she was because I didn't know who she was. But it was the combination of the clothing that was so odd. You know, no one would do that. If you had a fur coat you'd dressed up, you know. And then when she left, I must have overheard Mr. Sawyer telling Mr. Moore that Doris Duke had been in the store. So I said, “Oh my goodness,” you know, I didn't know who she wastil much later in life, recalling the incident that she just swished right past me. Michelle Lanier: The Sawyer Moore store. This was in downtown Durham? Frankie Perry: West Main Street. Michelle Lanier: West Main Street. Was this a white-owned…?

01:22:21.960 - 01:22:34.020

Frankie Perry: Yes it was. Yes, it was. Michelle Lanier: So there were some white owned stores... Frankie Perry: Plenty of white owned stores. I could tell you the one.... Michelle Lanier: That blacks could go into...

01:22:36.080 - 01:24:52.330

Frankie Perry: Yes. In most stores you could not try on clothes. You could not try on shoes. But the mayor of Durham, I have to see, let me get his name right. He had a store, he was Jewish, he had a store, Friedman's and no, excuse me, United Department store is his store. Friedman's is another store. But United Department Store, in the past when we were children, if you outgrew your shoes then you put your foot on a piece of cardboard and your parents would cut your foot out, cut the, you know, the shape of it. And they leave a little bit for growing, and they take it to the store and slip it inside a shoe, and that would be the shoe you would wear. Well, at United Department Store, Evans, Mr. Evans...they called him Mutt, M-u-t-t Mutt Evans would allow black people to try on clothing and try on shoes, one of the few businesses in downtown Durham that would do that. And then Sawyer Moore of course. There was a shop, Amos and Andy, that, hotdog shop, best hot dogs in Durham, best hot dogs in Durham. But they had no problems in serving African Americans. But some of the department stores like Kress's and Woolworth's and places like that, you had to wait. You could not just walk up to a counter, you had to wait to be acknowledged. They wanted your money, but you had to wait. But the other businesses, some of the businesses were really nice. There was a grocery store in downtown Durham called A&P, which was right in the center of Five Points and they would allow African Americans to shop in there, too. Michelle Lanier: Do you remember when you would travel, it with your great-grandfather who you would travel with by horse and wagon? Frankie Perry: Uh huh. Michelle Lanier: Do you remember seeing any of the tobacco auctions?

01:24:53.330 - 01:25:13.430

Frankie Perry: Never did. Michelle Lanier: That was probably more of a man's world. Frankie Perry: I never did. All you had to do was tell me that there were tobacco worms. That took care of it for me. I wasn't going to be there, so it was ok (laughs). So no, I never attended any of the auctions. Michelle Lanier: Any memory of going to Carolina Theatre during segregated times?

01:25:15.290 - 01:25:58.800

Frankie Perry: Yes. All the movie theaters had upstairs balconies, and at that time we thought it was very punitive, because we had to sit, you know, separately, but then we figured it out later that we had the best seats in the house because we weren't looking over someone's head. And that's when we had to continue to think about it in order to continue to go back, because we were paying the same amount of money, but we had to go up the steps in the back and then, but we looked over, we had the best view in the house. Michelle Lanier: Thank you so much for this interview, Ms. Perry. It has been an absolute honor. Frankie Perry: Thank you so much Michelle. I appreciate it. Michelle Lanier: Have a wonderful rest of your King holiday.

01:25:59.000 - 01:25:59.700

Frankie Perry: Thank you, ma'am. End of interview.