00:00:03.660 - 00:00:24.590

Gwen Bookman: This is Gwendolyn Bookman on December the 23rd 2025 interviewing Frederick "Stoney" Brown, first of all, stone I want to thank you so much for agreeing to do the interview. You and I go back a long way, and I'm sure in the

00:00:24.590 - 00:00:40.370

course of your telling us your story, we'll get a chance to see where you and I have overlapped and where our paths have crossed. So why don't you start by telling us a little bit about what your beginnings were here in Durham.

00:00:41.020 - 00:01:03.000

Frederick Brown: Okay, well, I was born in March 1, 1946 at Lincoln Hospital in Durham, North Carolina. I was also my mother's birthday present. She was also born on March 1. Gwen Bookman: What wonderful.

00:01:05.280 - 00:01:39.170

Frederick Brown: And of course, I don't remember the early childhood days, but I can go up to when I was six years of age and it was time to go to school, and at that time, Pearson School was filled up, so they said that I had to go to Whitted Junior

00:01:39.170 - 00:01:51.520

High School for the first and second grade? Gwen Bookman: Yes, oh my goodness, that's something I didn't even know, right? Frederick Brown: But you were over there too.

00:01:54.160 - 00:02:10.680

Gwen Bookman: That's part of the history that you're going to tell me taught because you have such a clearer memory as so many of my classmates do about those early years. So you went, you were supposed to go to Pearson, which would have been your local

00:02:10.680 - 00:02:26.420

school, local school, and not CC Spaulding, Frederick Brown: it wasn't built then. Oh, okay, it was built during my third grade year, and that's what, when I went there in the third grade, I was in one of the first classes, you know.

00:02:26.540 - 00:02:43.300

Gwen Bookman: And I think we must have been there together. That is absolutely fascinating. Frederick Brown: And my first grade teacher was Mrs. Rogers, okay. Was that in the first grade with you, yes, and second

00:02:43.300 - 00:03:04.320

grade, okay? And matter of fact, your mother was my second grade teacher, so I'm sure you got an A in that class. Gwen Bookman: I don't remember ever being in my mother's class. Frederick Brown: Okay, yeah, and But Miss Rogers was one of the

00:03:04.320 - 00:03:22.940

nicest teachers that I had in elementary I didn't receive one spanking or anything in that particular class. Gwen Bookman: Now, see, that's an interesting comment to make, especially in this day, so teachers actually gave

00:03:22.940 - 00:03:44.560

spankings, Frederick Brown: that's right, yes and, and, matter of fact, when we went to the second grade, I inadvertently kissed a young lady on the back of the neck, and she told it, and your

00:03:44.620 - 00:04:02.520

mother gave me a spanking for that. Gwen Bookman: Talk to me a little bit about this inadvertence. Your lips just happened to, Frederick Brown: well, she was sitting on the they have

00:04:02.520 - 00:04:15.840

something like a little wall around the trees and stuff, and she was just sitting on it, and I just snuck up behind her and kissed on the back of Gwen Bookman: was this? Was this a potential girlfriend? No, she

00:04:15.840 - 00:04:29.120

was older. She was older, yeah. So you were just being a fresh little boy, fresh boy, right, yeah, and Mother gave you a spanking. Frederick Brown: Gave me a spanking. And, matter of fact,

00:04:29.300 - 00:04:50.440

in the second grade, they had us segregated into three different groups. If you were really smart, you was in group one. If you're medium or mediocre, you were in group two, and if you was less than that, you were in group three, and they had the

00:04:50.440 - 00:05:01.220

groups divided within the classroom. Gwen Bookman: How did they make the assessment of where you went? Frederick Brown: All I can remember is. That I was in group

00:05:01.220 - 00:05:39.970

two, okay, okay, and and we had a lesson to read one day, and the the title of the lesson was More Rise and More Rise and Many Rise or something, not Many Rise, Many Rise. And no one in the class knew the word many, M-a-n-y, and I knew it. And so

00:05:39.970 - 00:06:04.070

when I said that, Miss McLaughlin, my second grade teacher said, "Stoney, you can pick up your chair and move to group one, okay?" And a little kid, you know, picking up a chair and walking over and over to group one, I was very happy.

00:06:05.860 - 00:06:30.260

And then she said, "Stoney, since you was able to read the title, could you read the first paragraph?" And the first word on that in that paragraph was more M-O-R-E, I did not know what - know how to pronounce that word. So she says,"Stoney,

00:06:30.620 - 00:06:51.060

pick up your chair and move to group two" Gwen Bookman: That is a terrible story. Frederick Brown: Wait a minute now, and let me get to how I came about the name Stoney. As a kid, my father's best friend was

00:06:51.060 - 00:07:17.750

named Stoney. Father worked at the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard during World War Two, and his best friend was named Stoney. So they called me Stoney. You know, I'm his little son. And so the first day of school in the first grade, they asked me, So what's

00:07:17.750 - 00:07:48.440

your name? And I said, "Stoney". So all my school records had the name Stoney, Stoney Brown on it. And I didn't find out that my name was Frederick until I joined the military, because they researched all the birth certificates and found out that

00:07:48.440 - 00:07:56.080

my name was Gwen Bookman: Frederick Brown. Isn't that fascinating? Well, I've never known you as anything other than Stoney Frederick Brown: other than Stoney,

00:07:58.300 - 00:08:14.280

Gwen Bookman: so you had quite an experience, first grade, second grade, and then going to an absolutely new Frederick Brown: school, new in the third grade, in the third grade now. Now also, I did get a chance to make it to group one

00:08:14.760 - 00:08:34.280

when it came time to telling time, I was the first one in the class to know how to tell time Absolutely, mom and that got you moved and I stayed there for the remainder year. Gwen Bookman: Well, you know, one of the things that I try to

00:08:34.280 - 00:08:53.080

think about in terms of the experiences we had in our segregated environment is that it was for most of his important purposes, very supportive. But I must tell you, that doesn't feel terribly good to me, that concept of putting students in

00:08:53.080 - 00:09:09.300

various groupings according to supposedly what you're able to do. But I do know that there was some tracking going on during that time all the way up through high school, right? Because I remember very clearly going to the beginning of the school

00:09:09.300 - 00:09:22.460

year. You go to the school and you look Frederick Brown: section 123, Gwen Bookman: and that's how you would find out which section of the class you were going to be. So how did that feel, though?

00:09:22.520 - 00:09:48.520

What do you think about that Frederick Brown: at that time? It didn't bother me, because I was able to perform the work. So that meant that, generally, that you, you around peers, that they can also perform the work. So

00:09:48.520 - 00:10:05.940

it's, it's not like if, if a lesson is going to take 15 minutes, if you have some slow people in there, it will take 30 minutes or an hour. So I. It really didn't impact me, because I was able to do the work. Well, that's

00:10:05.940 - 00:10:22.700

Gwen Bookman: an interesting point for you to make, that if you're in a group and you are able to perform at the same level as others in the group, while that may as a whole, be a little bit stigmatizing, it does allow you to feel competent

00:10:22.700 - 00:10:38.540

within the group that you're working so that's an interesting dynamic. So that was your first grade, second grade, third grade. Keep going for me. Where did you go for your high school? Frederick Brown: Well before I leave, CC Spalding, my third

00:10:38.650 - 00:11:05.400

grade teacher was Mrs. Geer and she said she asked the class one day, she said, "do we have anyone in the class that can draw?" And I had been tracing some of Tyrone Macall's work and Junius Jones' work. And I started, I was able to draw a

00:11:05.520 - 00:11:28.110

little bit. And I said, Yes, I can draw. And Thomas Sampson said, Yes, he could draw. Charles Samuel said, Yes, he could draw. So they pull out a gigantic sheet of paper that was Gwen Bookman: and you just didn't learn.

00:11:25.550 - 00:11:53.090

about 12 feet long, and said, I want you to draw a scene from Africa. And Thomas Sampson, we joked about this for years, years and years, is that he did not have artistic abilities, so he messed up. So I had to go and redo his work, convert it to

00:11:53.200 - 00:12:18.940

blades of grass and stuff like that. But that was the third grade, fourth grade. Ms. Bradshaw. Ms. Brashaw had a a thick paddle and and I got, I received that paddle one day, once again, for kissing the young lady, her sister, her

00:12:19.050 - 00:12:44.640

sister, Alexa James Frederick Brown: Didn't learn. Okay, then in the fifth grade, Miss Cheek had a big belt that she slid it into five different straps, and she put that on me, you know, for doing so I don't

00:12:44.640 - 00:13:12.400

know what I did to to earn that, but I got that and and then the sixth grade was Miss Pembleton, and I remember how that we used to go over to NCCU for the symphony to hear them play, and Clint Davis and I were talking in ranks as we marching over,

00:13:13.300 - 00:13:33.140

and she pulled us out of the line and smacked us. Yeah. She did, yeah. And so we behaved from that from that point on, Gwen Bookman: well, you know, I'm going to divert for just a minute to talk a little bit about that. Now, all of that

00:13:33.140 - 00:13:54.960

sounds extremely horrible to me. What do you think the difference is now, of course, in this day and age, you don't have the authority to do that kind of punishing to a child in the school system. Why was that so prevalent when we were growing

00:13:54.960 - 00:14:15.290

up? Frederick Brown: But I think that was considered corporal punishment, and I think that's why we're having the problems today, because we don't have it, you know. And you know, even

00:14:15.650 - 00:14:38.850

later on in life, when I went through the military, you know, they had punishment. They smack you and stuff like that. And it's even the fraternities, you know. Gwen Bookman: So it's just a different concept, I guess, the

00:14:38.850 - 00:14:59.600

idea, though, is certainly not to abuse, but to get attention, attention and to let you know the seriousness of being able to follow orders and behave in a certain kind of way, behave in a certain kind of way. So anyway, so that's your junior high

00:14:59.720 - 00:15:19.560

school. I mean, your elementary, elementary, where do we go from there? Frederick Brown: Okay, we went over to Whitted junior high, and the seventh grade teacher was Miss cromati, I believe, and

00:15:19.560 - 00:15:35.420

then the eighth grade was Miss Johnson, and the ninth grade was Mr. Gwen Bookman: Peel I think I remember Mr. Peele. He lived Frederick Brown: down on, yeah, he lived on Dunbar street. There

00:15:35.600 - 00:16:00.730

I was his paper boy, wow, at one time. And and what he made us do was we had to learn Shakespeare, "friends, Romans, Countrymen. Leave me your ears. I come to bury season not to praise him." Still remember that to this day, over 60 years ago,

00:16:01.810 - 00:16:21.890

Gwen Bookman: I know so you had to learn that and recite Frederick Brown: it in front of the class, right? Well, everyone had to do that. I remember Eileen Watts in the class. You know, Charles Savius. And what also at, at with it is when they

00:16:21.890 - 00:16:54.280

had the Bay of Pigs down in Cuba, okay? And Miss Johnson came to us and said, Yep, so the United States getting ready to declare war. And everybody that's over 16 is going to be drafted into the service. I start crying. I said, How do you

00:16:54.280 - 00:17:16.460

want to go in this service? Had no idea that a few years later I was going to make the military career, but at that particular time, you were about what, 1314, yeah, in the ninth grade, yeah, when that happened, yeah, yeah. Oh. And also, during that time

00:17:18.560 - 00:17:47.110

in school, math became my best subject. And matter of fact, we had what they call program instruction for algebra and under Mr. Knox, and I was one of the first ones to complete that booklet, you know, program instruction, and so that's sort

00:17:47.110 - 00:18:10.730

of made me think about being a math teacher. I was good in biology, and when I learned to draw very well, I used to draw the different body systems, 10 different systems, secretory, you know, the skeletal, the muscle system, digestive, made

00:18:10.730 - 00:18:46.590

it look real good, you know. And I get a on that, you know. So I say, well, either be a math teacher or biology teacher, and we'll see alone. Okay, yeah, now also doing that, say moving on to high school, is that civil rights and stuff was was

00:18:46.590 - 00:19:17.830

beginning to to emerge and and I knew coming up that My mother did domestic work my oldest sister did on domestic work. Now that upset me, because she was working five days a week for $10 what no for the whole for the whole week? What $2 a day, and

00:19:17.830 - 00:19:49.680

then and the the people that she worked for, their when their kids outgrew their clothes, they provided it to us, you know, so going down To page's store, family didn't really have any money that they would have rotten rotten peaches and

00:19:49.680 - 00:20:11.860

bananas, so they asked us, do we want them? Yes, we'll take them, you know. And and my day back during that time. Time was to find me six bottles, drink bottles. You had a two cent deposit on them, and I could take it to the store, to either

00:20:11.860 - 00:20:34.590

page store or the neighborhood grocery store. Two times six is 12 cents. I could buy five cents worth of white potatoes to cut up and make me some french fries. Five cent pack of Kool Aid. We always had sugar in the house and and then two cents'

00:20:34.590 - 00:20:51.430

worth of Virginia Snaps for my dessert. Wow, that's all I needed. Was 12 cents. So I used to hunt for bottles, and you found them on the street, on the street in the woods, you know, at the park, yeah. So where did you live stone? I lived on

00:20:51.430 - 00:21:13.080

Dunston Street, right between Saint Titus Church and and cows temple. Gwen Bookman: Yeah, I know exactly where that is Frederick Brown: now, and I knew that I want to so called, not

00:21:13.080 - 00:21:39.100

live like that, say for the rest of my life. And even though, like when the civil rights movement was going on and people were looting, I knew that I was going to go into service so that they would provide the financial support for me to go to college,

00:21:40.300 - 00:22:03.870

and so I didn't participate in those riots because I knew that if I got a court record, they might not accept me. Okay, so Gwen Bookman: How soon did you move into that as your life's path after Hillside, because you went all the way through

00:22:03.930 - 00:22:17.410

Hillside, Frederick Brown: all the way through hillside, and went one semester at North Carolina College. Then it's called North Carolina Central right now. Yeah, and tuition at that time

00:22:17.410 - 00:22:33.070

was on $110 Gwen Bookman: for the whole semester, whole semester, right? Frederick Brown: And my father did construction work, so, you know, during the winter months and when it's raining and stuff,

00:22:33.670 - 00:22:57.420

no money, you know. So my money didn't come in time for me to register for the second semester, so I joined the service, but going back to segregation during that time, at the WD Hill Recreation Center and the basketball courts behind

00:22:57.420 - 00:23:27.090

hillside, the nets were made of steel, steel nets, and the nets at Durham High School were nylon nets on the basketball court, so we used to slip over to Durham High School on the weekend and play basketball until the police came and run us away. You know,

00:23:27.390 - 00:23:38.250

isn't that something? Yes. So what was the Gwen Bookman: what was the result of playing with the steel at Hillside? It would hurt you? Frederick Brown: Well, you could hang on to them, but you

00:23:38.250 - 00:24:04.450

couldn't hear this swish when the ball went through that you've been here with a nylon nest, and go on, okay? And not only that, you know, during those time, going to the Carolina and center theater, we had to sit upstairs and and and

00:24:05.830 - 00:24:28.860

at the Regal Theater that was in our neighborhood, we could sit upstairs and downstairs, but up at center and and and Carolina and I think they had a Rialto. They were all segregated, you know, and and going into service, it was kind of

00:24:28.920 - 00:24:59.790

segregated. They the Civil Rights Bill had not or civil right Act had not passed when I joined the service in February 1965 and they gave basic battery tests, and I did well on mathematics, and I did, I did 100% on foreign language. Wow.

00:24:59.970 - 00:25:27.070

Watch what language one day made up. Oh, you know, it is made up of language, and had to read it and be able to congregate and all the stuff like that. And so when, after the tests were over, they said, say, brown, you did great in math. We want you to

00:25:27.070 - 00:25:53.160

take this electronics test. Never had electronics before in my life. I took it somehow. I made a good score on that. So they said, brown, what do you want to do while you are in the Navy? Said, well, since I made 100% on that foreign language

00:25:53.160 - 00:26:17.320

test, I want to be an interpreter. That way I could work at the embassy. You don't have to worry about going to Vietnam, fighting and stuff and receive $50 a day and and they said, Well, say you did good in the mouth and electronics. So

00:26:17.320 - 00:26:45.810

we're going to send you to the best school The Navy has, and they sent me through electronics, two years in depth electronics, long before the digital computers came out. So I started with analog computers, transmitters, receivers, radar

00:26:45.810 - 00:27:07.270

search and track, you know, and so that's, you know, how I got over into electronics, you know, Gwen Bookman: and how did that continue in your life's path? Did you continue?

00:27:07.570 - 00:27:32.220

Frederick Brown: Yes, right? Well, after being in navy, in the Navy for a while, and I became a navy instructor, I taught the different weapon systems for people in the Navy and the Marine Corps, and so after the Navy, well, matter of

00:27:32.220 - 00:28:02.730

fact, I want to become a naval officer. And they had a what they call Navy enlisted scientific education program, where I could attend that and become an officer. And one of the schools was at Duke University. So I applied there

00:28:02.790 - 00:28:28.880

in 1973 of course, I was turned down. So I decided to leave active duty of the from the Navy, and I started with Burroughs Corporation as a field engineer repairing computers. Gwen Bookman: Wow, was that here in Durham, here in Durham at the

00:28:28.880 - 00:28:55.540

Research Triangle Park. Had it started there? Yet? Frederick Brown: No, no. This was in 1974 and this was at Duke University. And so I, and I was going to school, they had four guys to to provide 24

00:28:55.780 - 00:29:21.980

by seven coverage at Duke University, Duke Hospital, I'm sorry. And so and we had to work one week on days, one week on evenings, one week on midnight show. But we got shift differential, holiday pay, double time Saturdays was

00:29:21.980 - 00:29:55.720

Saturday was time and a half. Sunday was double time. Holiday was triple time. Wow, and, and I, well, I was, I did that for about three years, but when my day shift came, I had to enroll at Central, and I was majoring in mathematics there, and so

00:29:56.200 - 00:30:19.380

when I got to my senior year, IB. Am came in and under bid burrows Corporation for that contract at Duke and so Burroughs sent me up to the Philadelphia area to be an instructor for their computers. And I went up there. Were there

00:30:19.380 - 00:30:46.420

for about a year, and I was just at the point of graduating from Central but I had to move up there and and I wanted to get into software. Burroughs said, no, no, you don't have a degree. You can't get into software. So I was still in the naval

00:30:46.420 - 00:31:11.520

reserves at that time, because I had done eight years, six months active duty, I said, I'm not going to just throw that away. So I joined the Reserves, and one of the guys that work with me in the Navy. I asked him, I said, Does AT and T have an

00:31:11.520 - 00:31:40.420

opening for a computer programmer? He said, Yes. Said, Yes, we AT and T looking for people like you, because they had a consent decree of 1966 where AT and T and IBM, they had to bring in some minorities in in, you Know. And so I went over

00:31:40.420 - 00:32:06.000

there and applied and was hired, became a program programmer, program for AT and T for 18 years. Wow. So that brought you from Philadelphia. Yeah, that, yeah. I wanted to come south from I went from Philadelphia to Washington, DC for about two

00:32:06.000 - 00:32:38.120

years. Then I went to Greensboro for about three years, okay, then I went to Florida for about three, four years, all with 18, with 18 years, 18 years of service, and so in 1996 AT and T had to split up because they were a big monopoly, Okay, and

00:32:38.900 - 00:33:08.580

and I was my job was outsourced to IBM, and because of the talent that I had, and at this time, I am in E commerce, which was the going thing At that time. And IBM said, Well, if you come work for us, we'll bring your 18 years of service over,

00:33:09.480 - 00:33:26.540

plus give you a 10% pay raise. Wow. I said, Okay, so on day one with IBM, I started off with five weeks vacation and 18 years of service. Gwen Bookman: How wonderful now was that here in the Durham

00:33:26.540 - 00:33:38.760

area, or were you still moving Frederick Brown: around? That was in RTP. Okay, Gwen Bookman: so that got you back. Frederick Brown: Wonderful for Fortune five company, not 500

00:33:38.820 - 00:33:55.260

Fortune Five and Gwen Bookman: that must have been wonderful. Big pay, big pay. And a real testament to all of the things that you had done leading up to that. Yeah. So how long were you with IBM?

00:33:55.740 - 00:34:13.430

Frederick Brown: Stayed there for 12 years, 18 and 1230, Gwen Bookman: so I retired. Isn't that something get my paycheck today? Isn't that something I qualify for? The old type pension? Wonderful. Well, that's a wonderful story. It

00:34:13.430 - 00:34:35.550

really is. What a trajectory you've had. So talk about all of the journey and how what you got in the segregated part of your experience in Durham helped you, if it did to do that beautiful, long career path that you took, what did you Get here?

00:34:36.270 - 00:35:00.380

Frederick Brown: Okay, well, back then the teachers really cared about the students. You know, if you slept in the class, they would come and get on the desk or something wake you up. But when immigration started, they just let the kids sleep. In

00:35:00.380 - 00:35:32.220

class and promote them on you know, but I think the instructors that that we had coming up because they worked with us, and and, and and I also had say certain people that I looked up to, especially the Omegas and that Mr. Burthey,

00:35:33.060 - 00:36:20.420

John Willard, the banker, even old man Scarborough. They were in high powered positions in the city of Durham. So I knew that, that I wanted to, you know, represent our race. Well, okay, now what I have done, some of my accomplishment, one of the what

00:36:20.420 - 00:36:53.460

I consider my utmost accomplishment was I hugged Rosa Parks in Greensboro. In Greensboro, North Carolina. We had a at that time, I was president of the Black telecommunications engineers for AT and T for the Greensboro

00:36:53.460 - 00:37:29.490

chapter, Lewis H Latimer, and we was given a banquet for Mandela, okay and Rosa Parks, and she had a book signing event, and I went over there and talked to her and got a hug from her. The Nelson Mandela can make the banquet. So he sent a substitute, and I went

00:37:29.490 - 00:37:48.080

over there to him, and I introduced myself. He said, Well, where are you from? I said, I'm from Durham, North Carolina. He said, Well, do you know Maceo Sloan Gwen Bookman: Mandela asked you that his age, his age, did okay?

00:37:49.640 - 00:38:08.960

Frederick Brown: See, at that time, anyone that wanted to do business with South Africa had to go through Maceo. Gwen Bookman: Ah, how about that? Frederick Brown: And in my lifetime, in 1967 I danced with

00:38:08.960 - 00:38:30.240

Diana Ross in Vancouver, British Columbia, all right, you know, we got out on the floor and did the Boogaloo. Well, you have had Gwen Bookman: experiences as you have gone through, tell me a little bit about the legacy that you leave. You are still here in

00:38:30.240 - 00:38:46.970

Durham. You're still doing good work. You're the president right now of our class of 1964 from hillside. So you are continuing to give you're retired, but you have not by any means stopped doing the good things that you've always done. So what do

00:38:46.970 - 00:38:59.070

you want your legacy to be as you close up this interview, what do you want all of us to take away from the wonderful life you've lived? Frederick Brown: Well, I know that when I became a programmer

00:39:00.990 - 00:39:37.100

and the class, we had 13 new new new employees, and 10 whites and three blacks. And at that time, now we are first generation programmers because, because of the consent decree that when we, when the blacks, ran into problems programming, we did not

00:39:37.100 - 00:40:07.730

have anybody to call for help that was black, you know. So my legacy, what I try to do now is give back, and in my lifetime, I had I can handle with those that are so called millionaires or at the top, but I don't forget where I came from. Now I can

00:40:07.730 - 00:40:31.110

still go walk around and say McDougald Terrace, but I look over my shoulder, you know? But that's what I want my legacy to be, that even though they say that so called made it in this world, but he always trying to lift up people.

00:40:31.160 - 00:40:49.380

Gwen Bookman: He never forgot where he came from, and never forgot the people that helped him, as the old saying goes, you lift as you climb, always make sure you're looking back to bring others with you, right? Well, Stoney, this has been just

00:40:49.460 - 00:41:08.860

a marvelous conversation. I have been very much admiring of you and many of my classmates who remember so much more of the details of the experience that we have have had. And so even for you today to talk about the fact that there was a Whitted

00:41:08.940 - 00:41:28.740

elementary experience, because CC Spaulding had not yet been built. And of course, some of that is just not the memory that I have been able to recall and pull on. So I want to thank you for taking this time and really sharing so many personal things

00:41:28.820 - 00:41:42.520

about your journey. It has been a very good and very enriching conversation for me, and I want to thank you for agreeing to do it Okay. Thank you. All right, all right. Bye.