00:00:02.160 - 00:00:23.549

Do is just put the date and the name of who, where we are uh on the tape so that we OK. So today is uh October 3rd, 2003. I'm in Durham, North Carolina at the Durham Public Library. 0240, thank you, October 4th. Um Yeah, I wrote

00:00:23.559 - 00:00:40.069

the third on my other release. Let me fix that. Uh This is Barbara Lau. Um We're working on the Durham Civil Rights Heritage Project and I'm speaking with Jennifer Smith Wyatt and Brandon Dorsey and is helping interview. OK. Um Well, maybe you were just getting ready

00:00:40.080 - 00:01:05.470

to tell us uh a little bit about your own. Something you remembered about being involved in civil rights here in Durham about integrating a school. Well, it was in the late um sixties, probably 6465 school year and that was the first year when um black students

00:01:05.480 - 00:01:26.589

could go to s uh junior high school other than um shepherd high school, junior high school. So I was one of the, I was in that first group of students who went to broaden junior high school. And OK. And um really all of the black students,

00:01:26.830 - 00:01:47.750

with the exception of maybe one or two in my neighborhood, we all went to Brogden junior high school that first year. Now, after the first year, most of the black students left and went across town to junior high school. But my parents just happened to believe

00:01:47.760 - 00:02:01.589

that we needed to stay there where we were because that was in our neighborhood. And of course, it would have been an added expense to take the bus across town because back then you had to take the city bus to get around from school to school.

00:02:01.599 - 00:02:18.240

There were no um school district buses. So, um I don't know what else you want me to tell. Tell us a little bit about, you mentioned your neighborhood and I know you live in a historic African American neighborhood. Tell us a little bit about your neighborhood.

00:02:18.610 - 00:02:39.770

Well, I grew up in Wall Town. Um I remember growing up that the street that I lived on Sedgefield and all of the surrounding streets were dirt roads at that time. And I remember um in the summer time that every so often an oil truck would

00:02:39.779 - 00:02:59.610

come by and put oil on the road to keep the dust down. And um you know, in later years and when I say later years, it was really in the sixties, probably about 63. I think it was when I was in sixth grade, maybe fifth grade.

00:02:59.910 - 00:03:19.470

Uh all of the streets in that area. Were finally paved. With the exception of two of the streets f street wasn't paved until much later. And I think F street's name has, uh, changed. In fact, two of the streets names in the neighborhood have changed. I

00:03:19.479 - 00:03:41.309

don't remember what the names are now, but, um, during that time, there were no sidewalks. Of course, when there were dirt roads, we didn't get the sidewalks until the streets were actually paved. And also during that time you walked everywhere you needed to go. Because right

00:03:41.320 - 00:04:06.470

there one club boulevard between, um, Berkeley and uh Onslow, that was a major, that was a major, that was the shopping area for our neighborhood because there was a barbershop there. There was a little what I call a juke joint that was there. Um, there was

00:04:06.479 - 00:04:22.410

a, a small grocery store which was also a fish market and my parents believed in having fish every single Friday and, and my mom would go to the fish market and buy the fish there and it was the old fashioned kind of market. The floors were

00:04:22.420 - 00:04:44.149

wooden floors and the, the floors were really uneven because, you know, some, some points were high, some points were low in the store. And what I remember most of all about that store was the candy because there were glass, big glass jars of different kinds of

00:04:44.160 - 00:04:59.739

candy and the candy jars, you know, to my memory, it seems like they sat on the floor but I'm sure they didn't. It's just that I was so short it seemed like they were sitting, sitting on the floor and I remember just being able to go

00:04:59.750 - 00:05:16.750

in and just get candy out of those jars and just bring the candy and just drop it on the counter and have my mom buy it. And, uh, I remember the, the lady who cleaned the fish, her name was Minnie. In fact, I can see she

00:05:16.760 - 00:05:31.920

many, I never knew, knew anything other than that. That's what everybody called her. I don't even know if she lived in the neighborhood. The only, the only time I ever saw her world was on Fridays when we went to get the fish and on Berkeley Street.

00:05:31.929 - 00:05:56.679

Now there was another store that was in the neighborhood was Mr Grant's store and that was really, it was diagonally across on the right hand side of the street, uh, from the old Saint James and Mr Grant's store. Basically just sold things like bread and milk.

00:05:56.690 - 00:06:12.320

But he had lots and lots of candy too. And it was a real treat when my mom would let us walk from Sedgefield to Berkeley. And we'd always cut through the backyard. So it was no walk. But my mom just didn't believe in letting us go

00:06:12.329 - 00:06:29.019

out of the yard. But when she did give us say 10 cents to go through the yards and go to Mr Grant Stewart, you could get, you could get gobs of candy for 10 cents in those days because you could get three pieces of candy for

00:06:29.029 - 00:06:45.040

a penny, or you could get a giant cookie for, um, you know, a couple of pennies or a nickel. So you got an awful lot in those days. You can't even believe it can you, but you really could, you could get an awful lot. Mr Grant

00:06:45.049 - 00:07:01.739

had, uh, ice cream pops too, that sort of thing. And the most amazing thing about Mr Grant was that he was blind. He couldn't see at all, but you could never ever cheat him. Of course. No, but we were little kids. We didn't want to cheat

00:07:01.750 - 00:07:18.540

him anyway, but he was blind. And I always found it so interesting that if you gave him some money, he could tell you whether you had enough money or not. And see back then being a little kid, I, you know, I never even thought of anything

00:07:18.549 - 00:07:29.910

about having the right amount of money. This is all the money I have. This is what I want. So this is my money. But he could tell you and he would just, he would feel the coins and he would say this is, and he would name

00:07:29.920 - 00:07:47.739

the coins and he would say you don't have enough, you need X number of additional coins. And it never occurred to me until I was much older. What a tremendous thing that was, that he was doing. Because I guess when you're a little kid, even though,

00:07:47.899 - 00:08:03.899

you know, in your brain, you, you see that he can't see it, never click. This guy can't see. And he's, and he essentially might not be able to do the same things I can do from a little kid's perspective. He was doing everything that I could

00:08:03.910 - 00:08:22.540

do because he was running a store, it was his store, he was taking care of the money. Now, his wife would be in the store with him sometimes, but she never handled the money. He handled the money. And what was so interesting is when later on

00:08:22.549 - 00:08:41.909

I grew, grew up and I went to college, I went to North Carolina Central and the, um, in the, um, business building, the old business building of Central. Way back in the seventies, there was a store that was in the basement there and it was run

00:08:41.919 - 00:08:56.965

by a blind man too. I don't even remember what his name was but he did, he did the same thing. He ran the store. Of course, by that time I had a high, the appreciation for what it took to actually be in a store. Blind man

00:08:56.974 - 00:09:11.804

running the store. But he did the same thing and of course, kids did try to cheat him because they were older, but you could never cheat him either. But, um, but yeah, those were, those were the, the two great places, Mr Grant store and I can't

00:09:11.815 - 00:09:32.890

remember the name of the fish market, the name of that store. I'm sure my dad could probably remember that. Um, there was another barber shop in the area too. It was run by, um, Mr Day. I think his name was Alonzo Day. And, um, in, excuse

00:09:32.900 - 00:09:53.659

me, olden years back in the years when it was the Wall Town community center over there, he was considered the mayor of Walt Town, the unofficial black mayor of Wall Town. And uh my dad would go to his barbershop every uh Friday to get his hair

00:09:53.669 - 00:10:14.320

cut. But yeah, and back then on, on Broad Street, it was the old A and P store I think right now there's a oriental carpet shop there used to be in Ecker, um or Coral Drugstore there, but that was an A and P supermarket to begin

00:10:14.330 - 00:10:31.184

with. And uh when I was growing up, my parents had one car, my dad took the car to work. My mom was at home for, you know, some years before she started working and we would walk to the grocery store. And then of course, everybody had

00:10:31.195 - 00:10:45.784

to bring their groceries back in the grocery cart. But we did something better than they do. Nowadays, we walked back up there and took the cart back. Nowadays, people don't take the carts back but it, but they never had a cart problem. Everybody would walk their

00:10:45.794 - 00:11:02.390

carts home, unload their groceries and walk them right on back and, um, the store patronized primarily by people in Walt Town neighborhood or was it also tell us a little bit about what was around Walton? You said there was an unofficial mayor, black mayor of Walt

00:11:02.419 - 00:11:21.440

Town because wasn't Walt Town kind of surrounded by some other name. Yeah, Walton. You know, it was very, very interesting because Wall Town that you call most people think of wallow as being black. But when you look on the map in terms of the boundaries of

00:11:21.450 - 00:11:45.799

Wall Town, Wall Town itself actually included some white neighborhoods, but the white people never consider themselves as part of the Wall Town community because you had Sedgefield Street, Berkeley Street, Onslow Street. And I cannot think of the name of the street just past Onslow before you

00:11:45.809 - 00:12:10.960

get to Buchanan. Tho those were the black streets uh all the way to um all the way up to uh almost the Duke Wall on Sedgefield and Berkeley. It was all black and I think it was probably the same way back then and, and on slow.

00:12:10.969 - 00:12:27.900

I'm almost sure it was, it wasn't until you got to some of the other streets where it might have been a block before you got to East Campus where you picked up pockets of white families. And then on the other side, on across from club on

00:12:27.909 - 00:12:49.359

Sedgefield Street, which went all the way down to Guests Road. It was all black there until you got to guest road. And then once you crossed over guest road, it was white, but then behind us in our backyard, it was Clarendon Street. That was all white.

00:12:49.780 - 00:13:07.469

And you know, we never spent any time on Clarendon Street. Now, when we would go to the A and P, we will walk, you know, we would walk on. Um I don't know why I can't remember what the name of that street is. Uh We would

00:13:07.479 - 00:13:26.979

walk on that s the street that would lead us between Clarendon Street and um Broad Street. We would walk through that neighborhood, but we never spent any time. We never stopped or anything like that. Uh So it was kinda like that neighborhood was behind us, but

00:13:26.989 - 00:13:40.690

we never knew a whole lot about it. White people lived in our backyard, we would play in our backyard. We would see the white people in our ho you know, in their houses, but they never spoke. We would hang out our laundry, they would hang out

00:13:40.700 - 00:13:58.000

their laundry. They, they never, they never ever spoke. And I remember there was one old lady who lived back there. It was almost as if she dared us to speak to. She would just come out on her back porch and just almost stare you down some,

00:13:58.739 - 00:14:16.150

you know, it was just unbelievable. We weren't even in her yard. She was over there staring us down and I remember there was one family that had some young Children. And in those, those days, we made our own entertainment. There, there was a wall, there was

00:14:16.159 - 00:14:31.369

the park over there, wallow park. But like I said, my mom didn't let us go out of the yard and most of our immediate neighbors, parents didn't let their kids. We just didn't go out of our yards like that. So we entertained ourselves. My parents had

00:14:31.380 - 00:14:51.840

the biggest backyard because, uh, my father stopped having a garden, uh, before the other people did. So we had a big backyard. So we would have games. We would have baseball games, but we played with a wooden plank and a tennis ball. And that, that was

00:14:51.849 - 00:15:06.760

our, our ball field and the little white kids on the other side, there's a little, um, creek, so to speak, that ran the, um, at, but you know where the alleyway is, was a little creek there. The white kids would be on the other side of

00:15:06.770 - 00:15:20.869

the alleyway and you could tell they wanted to come over and play so badly, so badly and they would just stand there and watch us. They, they didn't have anybody to play with. We were over there having all of the fun, but, you know, we were

00:15:20.880 - 00:15:39.830

that close in terms of kids, but we didn't even go to the same school. We went to Walt Town Elementary School. That's where all the black kids went. We had, uh, and it was one teacher for every grade um, Miss Russell was my first grade teacher,

00:15:39.840 - 00:15:55.729

Miss Russell. You know, as the kids say she was old as dirt when I had her and the woman, you know, when the woman finally died and she died, you know, long time after I had finished college, I don't know how old she was when she

00:15:55.739 - 00:16:12.719

died. But if someone had told me she was 100 years old, I would have believed it because she was really, really old. My second grade teacher was, um, Miss Baby. She was also known as Miss Ham, Miss Hammy too because she got married. I can't remember

00:16:12.729 - 00:16:29.960

which one was her married name, which one was her maiden name. But she only stayed married like a year. So she reverted back to her other name. She was the meanest teacher in the whole school. She was just so mean, you know, she would make me

00:16:29.969 - 00:16:47.039

cringe and then of course, when I got older and left wallow and I came back, you know, it was just like she, she was different. She wasn't mean anymore. But I guess that's because, you know, I wasn't one of her kids anymore. Um, my third grade

00:16:47.049 - 00:17:09.140

teacher was Miss Jimison. Mrs Jimison. We call everybody Miss back then. Now Mrs Jimison, you know, I'm not sure. I want to say she's still alive. She, she lived on Fayetteville Street and I want to say she is still alive. Um, and my fourth grade teacher

00:17:09.150 - 00:17:35.479

was uh, Mrs Austin. She, she died. Mrs Austin was, um, the only one of my elementary teachers that came to my house and gave me a, a college graduation present and Miss Fogle was my fifth grade teacher. She made sure that all of the kids had

00:17:35.489 - 00:17:55.089

good manners. She was the one that I remember teaching me about. There's more than one kind of fork, there's more than one kind of spoon and, uh, you put one hand in your lap when you eat, you know, and she went through that whole kind of

00:17:55.099 - 00:18:10.060

thing. And back in those days, uh the teachers in that school, they kept a washcloth and soap in their desk, toothbrush, toothpaste, all that kind of thing. Because if you came to school and you were not put together, you had to go to the bathroom and

00:18:10.069 - 00:18:33.390

get yourself together. No ma no matter who you were. And there, there were kids in the neighborhood who needed that. Now everybody in Wall Town compare with today's standards was considered poor. There were degrees of poor and you know, when we got shoes, we had two

00:18:33.400 - 00:18:49.969

pairs of shoes, we had school shoes, we had church schools, church shoes and we kept those the entire year. We didn't get new shoes until it was almost time for school to start. But then there were other kids in the neighborhood, particularly the kids who lived

00:18:49.979 - 00:19:07.859

on Berkeley Street. That that was really the street in Wall town where you had pockets of, of people who were much poor because a lot of the people on Berkeley Street didn't own their own homes. They rented their homes. Now that most of the people in

00:19:07.869 - 00:19:26.880

Sedgefield, the end between Club and Guest Road. We, we owned our homes with the exception of maybe one or two people at the very bottom of the hill of Sedgefield, we owned our homes. So in reality, we had a little bit more but we were still

00:19:26.890 - 00:19:46.140

poor. But, um, there were some kids who were at wal town school who were really, really poor. I remember there was one kid. Um, I have no doubt he probably had to clean himself every time every morning when he came to school because his teeth were

00:19:46.150 - 00:20:08.959

never well kept at all at all. Um, I remember, um, my mother even gave some of our, our clothes that we no longer use to a family and I'm not even going to name the family because, you know, they're still in Durham. And, um, one of

00:20:08.969 - 00:20:21.869

the girls was in my class and she, you know, I didn't know my mom had done that until I went to school one day and I saw her walk in and she was wearing, you know, one of my old dresses and I was a pretty big

00:20:21.880 - 00:20:37.849

kid. I was, I was, you know, overweight then, but she was really, really skinny. Her mom didn't take in the dress and he didn't do anything. She just wore it just the way it was so it wasn't fitting on her very well at all. But she

00:20:37.859 - 00:20:51.140

was so happy, you know, wearing that dress. She felt like she had a brand new dress, you know. But, um, well, how is the new school different than the one that you went to when you started? You went to Brogden? You said that and that was,

00:20:51.670 - 00:21:14.650

that was when it was a junior high school from a school in, in, in a black. You know what, what I remember um, most about Brogden were really a two major things. The, the black kids, we all stuck together. We, we did everything together, we ate

00:21:14.660 - 00:21:39.900

in the cafeteria together, we sat in class together, you know, unless the teacher separated us. And that another thing I remember about Brogden is that if there were some of the white kids who befriended you, some of them who would be friendly with you in class.

00:21:39.910 - 00:21:56.530

If you saw them out in public, they would act as though they didn't know you. And for a long time, I, I could, I just could never, I couldn't figure that out, you know, why, why would they not act as, why would they act as though

00:21:56.540 - 00:22:22.150

they didn't know me, you know, when they would see me in public. And um, unfortunately, even to this day, there are still some white folks that will do that. I I, I have worked with some, some white people who, when they see me out in public

00:22:22.160 - 00:22:39.069

in another venue, they, they may or may not speak, they might see me and then turn and look like, you know, they're doing something else and I know they saw me and it's still, you know, it's still just, it's so incredible to me. I, when I

00:22:39.079 - 00:23:07.380

was really little, you know, after I had started blogging and went through Durham High school, you know, it was just, I could not understand why, you know, they couldn't be friendly to me. I just couldn't understand that you studied, did your parents uh you know, people,

00:23:07.390 - 00:23:29.530

a lot of people have asked me that I really don't remember my parents sitting down and talking to me uh directly about race relations, you know, act this way when you go that there act this way when you don't. My parents always, they expected you to

00:23:29.540 - 00:23:44.439

act a certain way no matter where you were. So that's what they always center on how, how you are supposed to act when you're in public. Not how you're supposed to act when you're around white folks. They, they never, they never did that. And there was

00:23:44.449 - 00:24:04.579

one incident when I was growing up, my mom took my sister and I with her when she went to visit someone at Duke hospital. And in those days, Duke Hospital took blacks as patients. Uh just like there was Lincoln hospital on the other side of town,

00:24:04.589 - 00:24:20.869

that was the all black hospital. Well, we were right there in Wall Town. We were within walking distance of Watts Hospital, which was is now the School of Science and Math, white um black folks didn't go that there. That was the white hospital. We, we had

00:24:20.880 - 00:24:40.430

to either go across town to Lincoln, which if we were sick and we had to be hospitalized. That's where we went. But then in late later years back in the late sixties, uh then you know, blacks also went to, to Duke. And I remember we went

00:24:40.439 - 00:24:59.260

to Duke Hospital, my sister and I could not go with my mom to the room to visit whoever it was. She was visiting. She left us in the waiting room and she told us to stay there until she came back. Well, after my mom left, this

00:24:59.270 - 00:25:15.630

lady came over and she told it was a white lady. She told us that we were in the wrong place. We needed to go somewhere else and she took us to another place and we, we stayed there a really long time. And when my mom finally

00:25:15.640 - 00:25:31.339

came back, she was really, really angry and I, I couldn't tell whether she, you know, I, I thought she was angry with us because she kept saying, why aren't you where I left you? And you know, we said this lady told us we were in the

00:25:31.349 - 00:25:52.020

wrong place and she, she brought us over here and then when we got home, I heard my parents discussing it and what had happened was my mom had left us in the waiting room. Well, apparently there was a waiting room for black folks or a, an

00:25:52.030 - 00:26:09.589

official or unofficial waiting room for black folks. It was probably the unofficial waiting room for black folks and this lady had taken us there instead of letting us stay there where it, we would have been mixed with the, the white folks. And that made my, my

00:26:09.599 - 00:26:33.849

mother very, very angry. But I don't remember if my mother ever went to the lady and said anything, I just don't remember. She could have, but I, I don't remember. And um you know, that was, that was really, I just found that that was really, really

00:26:33.859 - 00:26:56.589

um that was sad that that woman felt she needed to do that because we were just little kids. You know, we weren't, we weren't hurting anybody. Um You know, if she had been a black woman and had moved some white kids, uh they probably would have

00:26:56.599 - 00:27:13.550

tried, you know, when I say they, the system probably would have tried to make a lot of it in terms of um you know, putting Children in uh in harm's way, so to speak, just the way you would. Now if you were an adult and you

00:27:13.560 - 00:27:29.229

just go over and speak to your kid, you just don't do that in these days and times. But, you know, she never, she never should have done that not to somebody else's kids, you know. But I don't know what else you, you want me to tell

00:27:29.239 - 00:27:53.609

you is, um, how did you, what was your parents, uh, rational for having you heard in junior high? Instead of, um, well, just like, just like I said, my, my parents basic rationale from my perspective for our, for our going to Broadland Junior high school. What

00:27:53.619 - 00:28:13.030

was really the money? My, my, my mom and my dad ha have they were hourly employees. So they didn't have a big paycheck. You know, my mom and dad's paychecks, you know, for a lot of years at the end of the week was way less than

00:28:13.060 - 00:28:36.339

$100. And they would have had to have spent money for myself and my sister to go across town on the city bus rather than walk from our house to Brogden junior high. And that's what we did. We walked from our house to Brogden and that was

00:28:36.349 - 00:28:56.430

at least a two or a three mile walk and we walked it every day no matter what the weather was or what the temperature was, we walked there. So from an economic standpoint, that made more sense to my parents, it was the only junior high school

00:28:56.439 - 00:29:16.130

that was on that side of town and it just happened to have been the all white junior e except for Carr Junior high, uh, you know, at that time. So, um, and, and then it was available to blacks, you know, we were allowed to go. So

00:29:16.140 - 00:29:34.640

it was, it was never, I never heard any discussion, you know, I never knew anything different, you know, broaden junior high. That was the school that was in walking distance of my house. That's where we're going. Um, you know, I, I never really had any desire

00:29:34.839 - 00:29:51.400

to personally to get on the bus and go to the other side of town because that was a long way. That was a really, really long way to talk about putting a kid on a city bus and going to the other side of town when I

00:29:51.410 - 00:30:28.589

had at that time, I had never ridden the bus by myself, you know, at all. I always ridden with my, my uh my mom, excuse me. Hello? Yes, Angel. Could you? Ok. Could you call and, and tell her that for me, please. 688,

00:30:31.209 - 00:30:56.180

6881681 and I'll call you back and tell you why. Ok, bye. You know, my, my parents didn't believe in wasting money. That's what the bottom line was. And, and even, uh now a whole bunch of us started bro and junior high that first year it was

00:30:56.189 - 00:31:19.469

integrated. But after that first year, just about all of the black kids did start taking the city bus to the other side of town. II I, you know, something I, from what I remember, I don't think they felt comfortable being there. I, I don't think they

00:31:19.479 - 00:31:43.109

felt as welcomed as they thought they should have been or would have been welcomed, you know, um, you know, some people can walk into a room and immediately they say, ok, there's one black person, there's one black person, there's too, you know, they start counting it

00:31:43.119 - 00:31:58.959

all and then other people can enter a room and they walk in and all they see are people and they don't think anything about and I can give you the perfect example. This week, I went to a conference in Winston Salem and you know, I'm at

00:31:58.969 - 00:32:16.449

the conference just function. I'm not thinking anything. I'm just there with a whole bunch of people and one of the presenters brought up something that had had to do with the black issues. And when they did that, it's like something went like that in my brain.

00:32:16.459 - 00:32:31.819

And I turned and I looked, and I looked again and I thought I am the only black person in this whole room. And there were like 100 people in the room. But hey, that was the second day of the conference. I've been there two days and

00:32:31.829 - 00:32:52.300

it never occurred to me. I was the only black person in the room. And, and, and I think some people even years ago when you're a little kid, it depends on how things were discussed in your house. Like I told you, I don't remember my parents

00:32:52.310 - 00:33:09.810

discussing you act this way when you're around it. They never did. They just want you to act a certain way, period when you were out in public? Ok. So I would imagine that maybe in other households it was not like that, that it was discussed about,

00:33:09.819 - 00:33:24.469

you know, racial things were discussed. So therefore when they went out in public, you know, they may have seen things from a different perspective. Now, when I was at B Broaden did I know I was a black among a whole bunch of white. Of course I

00:33:24.479 - 00:33:41.719

did. But it never seemed to, it never seemed to bother me from a racial perspective. And, you know, I've had a lot of black folks say, you know, something's wrong with you. But what bothered me was if, if nobody, they wouldn't be my friends, I couldn't

00:33:41.729 - 00:33:55.270

figure out why they wouldn't be my friends. You know, that's what bothered me. It, you know, it didn't bother me that they didn't want to eat with me. I mean, because I had some people I was eating with, they were my friends, they lived in my

00:33:55.280 - 00:34:15.030

neighborhood so I didn't care, they didn't want to eat with me. They don't live in my neighborhood. Big deal, you know. So, but that's, you know, that's, that's just the, now I'll tell you what I do remember my, my parents talking about the olden days how

00:34:15.040 - 00:34:38.938

things were when they were growing up in terms of race relations. My parents never could watch a movie, like the, the autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman. They would never watch anything like that on TV. Nothing. Period. If it came on and if my sister and I

00:34:38.948 - 00:34:55.039

were watching it, they would get up and leave. And I remember asking my, my, my parents, you know, why don't you, why aren't you watching this? And, and their simple answer to me was I lived it. I don't need to go through it again. And I

00:34:55.049 - 00:35:17.110

do remember my father telling us that the father of, one of his friends was lynched and my dad grew up in Roxboro, that's in Person County. And, you know, as a little kid, I found that so unbelievable because lynching is something I read about in a

00:35:17.120 - 00:35:37.729

book. It's not something that I knew somebody that, you know, could say they had a personal connection to a lynching. Now, I can't remember why this man was lynched. You know, that's something my dad would have to tell you. But the father, one of his friends

00:35:37.739 - 00:36:00.739

was lynched now that, you know that, that really did bring it home because, hey, that's right in my backyard, so to speak person County and Durham County, you know, are side by side and, and, and if you haven't been to Person County before or northern Durham

00:36:00.750 - 00:36:26.540

County, you'll find pockets of black people who are, got the same last names, but they are the Black Basses, the white Basses and, and even in my, my own family, now, my mom grew up in Granville County in Creedmoor. Now, my, my grandfather owned an awful

00:36:26.550 - 00:36:51.870

lot of land and, uh, and creed more and he had, he had, uh, yeah, white people in his, um, heritage and, um, you know, I don't even remember the whole story about that. My aunt would have to shoot. In fact, we only have one aunt that's

00:36:51.879 - 00:37:11.250

still living. She would have to tell you the whole story about that. But, but the bottom line being the fact that my grandfather had all of this land for my family, keeping that land in the family has been very, very important. The same is true on

00:37:11.260 - 00:37:32.800

my father's side in Person County. Now, my grandfather, my father's father bought all of his land and he had an awful lot of land. I think he had 100 acres, maybe more of land in Person County and land back then was real, was real cheap, but

00:37:33.030 - 00:37:58.659

not every black person had the means to buy land. So my father's side on his, on his side of the family, keeping the land in the family is very, very important. And um might sound kind of bad to some people, but it's, it's an un un,

00:37:59.239 - 00:38:18.989

it's an unspoken rule. You know, it's just something that I know no one's ever said it to me that if you get married, your land needs to stay with you and your Children, your land is not your spouse's land. You know what I'm saying? Because the

00:38:19.000 - 00:38:40.620

spouse might not understand the hardship that it took to get the land. And fortunately I have a spouse who understands that perfectly well, he didn't have any problem with that. Um, in fact, my, my, on my mother's side, a story is told about one of my

00:38:40.629 - 00:39:02.620

grandfather's Children who married and he divided his land up and gave each child some land when they got married. Well, this aunt's husband lost the land and it was told that on my grandfather was on his death bed and when he found out that this, this

00:39:02.629 - 00:39:20.350

his son in law was losing the land that he tried to get up off of his death bed to, to take some money to the whoever was taxed or whoever it was to, to pay for the land to keep the land in the family, but the

00:39:20.360 - 00:39:38.229

land was lost. So, you know, it was always unspoken, you know, you keep the land in the family. Now, that's not Durham County, but I'm sure there are other places within Durham County where, where it's like that. And I happen to live right now in the

00:39:38.239 - 00:39:57.020

house where my mother was, was reared. You know, and I, and, you know, I have a great affinity for making sure that our land when I say our land, I'm talking about the family's land, stays, stays in the family. And of course, it's been divided up

00:39:57.030 - 00:40:12.310

among, you know, all of the, um, my grandfather's Children, which now some of them are dead and it's really my cousin's land but we had the same, we all had the same affinity. We keep, we keep it in the family. You might not live there, but

00:40:12.320 - 00:40:28.959

you're gonna keep it in the family. So I probably have told you more than you even wanted to know that was getting off of the track from Walt Town. But um, like, like I said, my dad was uh one of the founding members of the Walt

00:40:28.969 - 00:40:53.419

Town Community Center. And um Mr Primrose Jones was uh my dad's and my mom's next door neighbor. He also worked um at Duke Hospital for a lot of years. He was a cook. And when he left Duke Hospital, you know where the cattleman's restaurant is on

00:40:53.429 - 00:41:13.919

Hillsborough Road. Well, when that restaurant was first built, Mr Primrose Jones was the chef at that restaurant. I don't remember if it was called cattleman's then or not, but he was the cook for the Wall Town Community Center because every Christmas at, well, Thanksgiving there would

00:41:13.929 - 00:41:32.580

be a thanks giving meal for the founding, the founders of the community center and their families. And we will all go into the community center. And Mr Primrose Jones would cook dinner for everyone and that is the only time in my life that I ever got

00:41:32.590 - 00:41:47.870

to eat mince meat pie because he would always have minced meat pie. He would always have apple pie. That is the only time that I would ever have cheese on my apple pie. He would put cheese on the apple pie. My parents always put ice cream

00:41:47.879 - 00:42:09.000

on the apple pie. Mr Jones, put cheese on his apple pie and then he would have the turkey and the dressing and yams and everything. But we would all go there as a group of community families and eat there. Our, our Thanksgiving dinner. Now, I never

00:42:09.010 - 00:42:23.520

thought a whole lot about that. It was just fond memories. But recently I went with my dad to a meeting at the Wall Town community Center and the meeting was held in that same room and, and the center back in those days was just really one

00:42:23.530 - 00:42:42.290

room. And when I walked in and I saw how small that room was. I couldn't believe that all of those families got in that one room and we all sat down at a one long table and we ate. It's unbelievable to think. We were all in

00:42:42.300 - 00:43:05.120

that one room eating. We had to be some really little people because that room was so small. But yeah. No, it's, uh, what did you discuss was the strength of the community? Yeah. What role did the community take during the length of? Oh, you know, you're

00:43:05.129 - 00:43:28.489

probably not asking the best person because during that, during that period of time, I, I was really young. Um, I don't remember anything like marches taking place in Wall Town. Now, that doesn't mean that they didn't, but I really don't remember what I remember were the

00:43:28.500 - 00:43:45.810

marches taking place on the other side of town because see, there were more blacks on the other side of town, really on the, on the, on the side of town where we were the North Durham side. That was really it, that little pocket of blacks that,

00:43:45.820 - 00:44:03.030

that was, you know, just about everybody that was black on that side of Durham lived right there in Wall Town. Everybody else that was black was on the other side of town. And compare to the size of the black community in Wallow to the size of

00:44:03.040 - 00:44:22.169

the black community in Hatay, we probably weren't even half that number in size. So all of the, all of the activity that I remember for the civil rights movement was really taking place on that side of town or downtown, you know, like the old Walmart, uh

00:44:22.179 - 00:44:42.179

Walgreen um Walgreens downtown. Now, I know there was some uh some sit ins that went on in there. Um But see, I just don't remember anything like that taking place in Waldow. Now you ask somebody else who grew up in Walt Town, they might tell you

00:44:42.189 - 00:45:02.389

different, something different. Um My, my parents really they really shelter us, you know, when, when I look back on it and think it, they, they really protected my sister and, and I, so there may have been a things going on in the community that, you know,

00:45:02.399 - 00:45:17.479

I'm as a little kid, I may not have even been aware of. And um, do you remember anything like it when all of that stuff was happening? Did it change the way that your family got along with any of the white families or other people? Right

00:45:17.489 - 00:45:40.879

in your area? You know, kind of just being influenced by what was happening over there. I really don't remember my parents having any uh interactions with the white people that were in our neighborhood, you know, like the people on Clarendon Street. Um You know, I, I

00:45:40.889 - 00:45:59.379

really don't remember any interactions of that nature. Like I said, you really, you really have to ask me, I went to Durham High School. How many years did it been integrated when you went there? Uh three years because uh I started at Brogden and I'm sure

00:45:59.389 - 00:46:16.909

that was the same year that Durham High was integrated. So I was at Brogden three years and yeah, I went, I went to Durham High and um and it, it was a little different at Durham High. People were the kids, the white kids were uh were

00:46:16.919 - 00:46:36.830

friendlier than they were at at Brogden. Um But by the same token, some of the kids that I had gone to school with all three years at Brogden. You know, by the time we got to Durham High School even, they were probably a little different. Um,

00:46:37.790 - 00:47:00.770

and then of course, when we got to Durham High School, uh, you had, uh, black guys that were on the football team and the basketball team and of course they were ex, they excelled at those sports, um, black cheerleaders. There was one black cheerleader that I

00:47:00.780 - 00:47:22.949

can remember and I want to say her last name was Cook. I remember one black cheerleader. Now, what year or years was she a black cheerleader? I do not remember, but I do remember there was one black cheerleader that was at Durham High school. Any tension,

00:47:30.409 - 00:47:52.689

you know, for me personally, I don't remember any tension, but I have no doubt there was some tension. Um I didn't always put myself in a position for there to be tension. You know, like, like I said, you, you really, you really have to ask some

00:47:52.699 - 00:48:10.510

of the other kids because like I said, when, when I say that to people, they either think that I'm not telling the truth or I don't have a realistic viewpoint of it. But, you know, I, I really, II, I kept to myself, I didn't, I was

00:48:10.520 - 00:48:37.729

not an extroverted kind of person. And like I said, if someone wanted to be friends with me, fine, if they didn't, then, you know, I always had somebody else that I was friends with. Um, I don't remember, I don't remember any teachers being overtly uh mean

00:48:37.739 - 00:48:57.590

to me or rude to me. Like I was telling this young man, I, I do know that if I saw one of them out in public, they more than likely were uh subject to not acknowledge my presence. That happened a lot. I did have one teacher.

00:48:57.600 - 00:49:15.540

I had a French teacher in junior high school and uh she always seemed to think it was just so amazing that, you know, I had some brains. I didn't think too much of it at that time, but I have no doubt there were probably a lot

00:49:15.550 - 00:49:34.530

of teachers who didn't think that the black Children would e excel and at those studies at their studies and my sister and I, you know, we were smart, you know, we always, we always did our homework, we always studied, we always made good grades. Uh Now

00:49:34.540 - 00:49:55.219

there were some other kids who were like that, that there were not large numbers of kids who did that. But like I said, that my parents expected that they believed in education and that's what we did. Yeah. What was it? Um, obvious uh several observable differences

00:49:55.229 - 00:50:19.729

between the way the black females are treated and the black males are treated is the integration. I would have to say it's probably still very much like it is right now. I think the girls probably had an easier time than the boys because back then, you

00:50:19.739 - 00:50:40.489

know, uh it was an unspoken rule so to speak that you didn't want the black boys hanging around the black, the white girls. Now, the black girls, we could hang around just about anybody. Nobody would think anything of it. But if it was a black boy

00:50:40.500 - 00:50:55.969

hanging around some white girls that, that would be quickly broken up right away, you know, and it wouldn't necessarily be broken up in an obvious way like, oh, you know, you know, y'all can't be together y'all black, y'all white, you know, you know, it just might

00:50:55.979 - 00:51:13.419

be a matter of, you know, a teacher might come over and say, hey, I need to talk to you about so and so come with me, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, the group is broken up and um I have no doubt that there were probably some,

00:51:13.429 - 00:51:34.320

some interracial couples. In fact, I'm sure there were some interracial couples. Now, people who knew them probably knew they were a couple. But if you did not know them, if you were not considered friends or friends of friends, then you may not know that they were

00:51:34.330 - 00:51:54.669

interracial couples. Now, did they go to each other's houses? Probably not. But then, you know, like it is now back then it's not like now you could be boyfriend and girlfriend in school and never even go to anybody's house. You just be boyfriend and girlfriend and

00:51:54.679 - 00:52:17.139

So, I don't know if I could tell you anything else. How did you decide which college to go to? Uh, that was kind of like a no brainer. Um, I went to the college that my parents told me to go to, I went to North Carolina

00:52:17.149 - 00:52:40.149

Central when I was at Durham High. We did have a black guidance counselor and I know she was there in my senior year, whether she was there before my senior year or not. I don't know. And you know, something I had never even thought about this.

00:52:41.489 - 00:52:56.889

I think she might have been the only black teacher at, at Durham High School. But that can't be, that can't be the case. But she is the only black teacher I really remember at Durham High School, at least she's the only one that has even left

00:52:56.899 - 00:53:18.370

an impression on me and she was my senior guidance counselor. She happened to be the um um student recruiter at North Carolina Central Nancy. Um She just died a couple of years ago. Can't think of her, her last name. But anyway, she was my senior guidance

00:53:18.379 - 00:53:45.560

counselor. She made sure that all of the black kids had information about all colleges spec specifically white colleges that were recruiting blacks. And during that period of time, white colleges were actively recruiting black students, they had money for black students. But in order to get the

00:53:45.570 - 00:54:05.810

money, of course, you had to fill out the financial aid application. And one college that appealed to me was Franklin and Marshall. Now I never visited Franklin and Marshall. I just know I read all of the information that was there for Franklin and Marshall. And my

00:54:05.820 - 00:54:29.669

guidance counselor was saying that, you know, they wanted black students, they had money for black students. It was away from North Carolina. So Franklin and Marshall sounded very appealing to me. But when I took home, the applications for financial aid and the applications for college, my

00:54:29.679 - 00:54:54.810

parents refused to participate in completing them. And one reason they didn't participate. Well, there were really two reasons, but one reason was, my father did not believe in letting the family business, his business leave the house. So when it came to money, the only person who

00:54:54.820 - 00:55:13.949

knew about our finan finances were the people who lived in our house. If there was any, any need for money to go and do anything outside of our house, then my father provided the money. If he couldn't provide the money, then you didn't participate in it.

00:55:14.370 - 00:55:29.280

And the other reason was that Franklin and Marshall was a long way away. It was out of state in Pe, in Pennsylvania. And my father's whole thing was ok. They have money for you this year because I kept saying, um, they, they say they have money,

00:55:29.290 - 00:55:46.189

they have, ok. Well, suppose you get there and you either don't do, well, you don't have any money, you have to come back home or say you do. Well, who says they're gonna have money for you the next year? What my, what my parents could afford

00:55:46.199 - 00:56:06.340

was North Carolina Central University. What my parents could afford was North Carolina Central University with me, staying at home with them while I went to college. So it turned out to be a no brainer. I was a, I was a very docile child. I did what

00:56:06.350 - 00:56:24.750

my parents said, you know, I, I had no money of my own. So North Carolina Central was the college that I went to. Now, once I got there, you know, I, I excelled, I was able to get some money on my, my own. Uh that didn't

00:56:24.760 - 00:56:44.629

require, you know, any family business, you know, going out to anyone else. And, and I'm really glad that I, I went to North Carolina Central because, um, of course, it was a North Carolina College back, um, back then, but before I left it, the name changed

00:56:44.840 - 00:57:04.915

because, uh it does have such a rich history about it. And Maynard Jackson's mother was in charge of the French department while I was there. She, she was history right there. And I never, you know, I never even realized until, you know, after I had left

00:57:04.925 - 00:57:27.250

college that I was going to school with historical people right there. And, um, you know, so I'm glad I went to Central. Uh I feel like I got an excellent education while I was at Central. And um, I'll tell you one thing about, about Central. Now,

00:57:27.260 - 00:57:46.159

when I was in high school and I would tell people about North Carolina Central, tell white kids their words to me was, where is that? I never heard of that school. I found that so unbelievable. North Carolina Central right there in Durham has been in Durham

00:57:46.169 - 00:58:04.149

for years and years and years and years and the white kids never knew anything but they didn't even know the name of the place they knew Duke. They knew un c they knew North Carolina State. They didn't know North Carolina Central. They didn't know North Carolina

00:58:04.159 - 00:58:27.739

College. Now, that, that's sad. I could see if central was a, a school that was no bigger than say, maybe this room but central cover, you know, acres and acres of big old place and they didn't know anything about it. So why didn't they know anything

00:58:27.750 - 00:58:49.310

about it? They probably never went to that side of town, probably never, ever went to that side of town and their parents never spoke the name. You know? That's sad. But I bet you they, no central now, that might be. I know you don't have a

00:58:49.320 - 00:59:22.899

lot of time with me. Could it be that one would be interesting or pick, pick one of those then? How do you think you ever have not changed? Just the time of the has or has not changed? Well,

00:59:26.020 - 00:59:50.979

I think one thing that has changed a, about Durham from a black perspective is since the civil rights movement. But I don't think the black kids really understand all of the history and struggle that, that blacks and Durham went through, they just have no perception of

00:59:50.989 - 01:00:07.560

it at all. And, and, you know, that's not something that's unusual. I mean, that's, that's in any, hey, my, even my own kids, they just don't have any perception of how hard it really was to be black and how hard it still is to be black.

01:00:07.959 - 01:00:38.570

They, they don't have a perception of how hard it still is to be black. Um Because, because everything is so subtle now, uh if, if, um if you are excluded from activities, there's always other reasons why that can be pinned on. Uh I don't know how

01:00:38.580 - 01:01:03.600

to say this and I probably shouldn't even say that my husband says I should stop saying saying this because you're black. Um kids in Durham, they just don't understand, they don't understand the rich heritage of Durham. And one of the reasons they don't understand the rich

01:01:03.610 - 01:01:22.520

heritage of Durham is because they don't see it. And the reason they don't see it is because it keeps getting torn down and see when, when we go to the, to the, the other side of town where the old hay was, you know, I point out

01:01:22.530 - 01:01:37.149

to my, my kids, I said, you know, it was a florist right there at that corner. It was, it was like a five points. It was like 1234. It was at least four, at least four streets that came together and right there at that and that,

01:01:37.620 - 01:01:56.129

that v there was a floors, I tell them, ok, your cousin had a restaurant. My cousin owned the Green Lantern restaurant. She had her restaurant right there when my husband and I got married and our invitations need to be printed. We went to the printer, the

01:01:56.139 - 01:02:15.050

black printer that was there in hay time. Now we had other places that we could go. But when we got married, you know, it was still that sense of patronizing black folks. You know, all of those businesses were still there. Now, were they decrepit? Were there

01:02:15.060 - 01:02:33.760

empty storefronts? Yes. But they were still the old people. They were still there hanging on. And I, you know, I tell my kids, you know, all of these businesses were along here, the black Doctor, Doctor Cook at his office right there across from the library. You

01:02:33.770 - 01:02:50.479

know, and even though Doctor Cook had, he had to have some type of, um, disease like Lou Gian or something. I just remember in his later years, he, he shook, he couldn't have walked, he had to sit down to examine you, but my parents continued to

01:02:50.489 - 01:03:13.149

go to him until he just couldn't do anything at all. Now, could they have gone somewhere? Else should they have gone somewhere else? Sure. But it was that sense of patronizing black businesses. Doctor Bass had his dental office right there on Fayette Street. You know, my,

01:03:13.159 - 01:03:36.860

my kids, they go over there and they, the businesses aren't there or if it's a business that is there, it is, there is no pride in the way the business is maintained or run. So it's very easy for, for kids, black kids, kids and white kids

01:03:36.870 - 01:04:04.550

to get the impression that if you are a black businessman, that you're not professional enough or capable enough of running a business, that's, that's one sad thing about the civil, the, the, the um the uh about the integration and what the civil rights movement brought around.

01:04:05.459 - 01:04:32.280

It. Actually, it actually wiped out our culture and, and I shouldn't say the civil rights movement wiped out our culture. I think that when we got to the point where we could have choices, we were so glad we were so glad to have those choices that

01:04:32.290 - 01:04:57.580

we wanted to let go of painful memories. And in letting go of those painful memories, we allowed the majority race to erase those memories. And it wasn't until much, much later, like now within the last few years when someone turned around and said, hey, you know,

01:04:57.590 - 01:05:18.169

things are not 100% better than they were years ago, you know, and my past is not there anymore. And I would venture to say, it may not have been a group of black folks that started all this historical preservation stuff. Now, I could be wrong about

01:05:18.179 - 01:05:36.750

that. It could have been a group of black and white folks but the, but the civil rights movement and the fact that we wanted to let go of a painful past, we allowed our past to be erased, you know, physically erased in Durham. And because it's

01:05:36.760 - 01:06:00.120

been physically erased, it's hard for black kids and white kids and Hispanic kids to see where the history physically was. They can read about it in a book. But when you can't touch it, it is, it doesn't have the same value as if you can go

01:06:00.129 - 01:06:15.429

and visit and put your finger on it. It's like reading about the holocaust, you can read about it and read about it and say, oh, that's so sad. But until you go to the concentration camps and you see the places where the people was, where the

01:06:15.439 - 01:06:38.159

people were, that's when you say it's real. And that's, that's really what the civil rights movement in Durham has done it. It has erased our physically erased our past. And, and it's unfortunate that when people have a lot of pain, you know, in, in, in their

01:06:38.169 - 01:07:02.469

soul that they want, they want the pain to be erased. But the reality is you can't let the pain be erased. You got to keep the pain in your soul so that you can always remember and appreciate any benefits of the future. That's why you sometimes

01:07:02.479 - 01:07:18.389

hear people say I can forgive you, but I can't forget. That's exactly what it boils down to. That makes sense. Makes sense. You're welcome. You're very welcome. Well, let me go find some book tapes.