00:00:00.980 - 00:00:23.190

OK, so you got some questions or something, man. OK, good. Because, yeah, because there's no way in the world I can just pull it out of this thing. This is will at water. It's January 19th, 2004. Um I'm about to interview Mr Luther Holman. Um Actually,

00:00:24.510 - 00:00:43.840

so can we start beginning by you just kind of stating who you are? My name is Luther macduffie Oman Junior and I'm from Durham. Um The, the executive was raised in North Durham. My father is Mac Luther mcduffie Holman Senior and most folks know him as

00:00:44.000 - 00:01:09.180

Macduffie Holman a Duff, you know, as I was saying, um right now um I just uh completed my degree uh in uh sociology and I will be working on my master's in sociology. Have three more courses and I have my bachelors in social work. I'm planning

00:01:09.190 - 00:01:31.339

on dedicating the rest of my time um to the fulfillment and documentation of the civil rights movement um and document the things that my father and um everyone that associated with them and to show and bring out the unsung heroes um that were very involved and

00:01:31.349 - 00:01:52.769

to uh oh a high rate places put us in a place of where we are at this time. Um, what can you talk a little bit about what you remember about, uh, growing up? Uh, and during the movement? Yes. Um, like most kids at the time

00:01:53.589 - 00:02:11.649

I really didn't understand, uh, what all the fuss was. I know that it was a lot of, um, discrepancies between the white and blacks and, um, my father was the type that he had a lot of pride and everyone around him, um, had that same type

00:02:11.660 - 00:02:34.550

of pride. He didn't feel as though that um there was a equal, there was equality was not the same. Um, when I was young, I remember walking on the picket line as, you know, we're talking about 78, nine years old. Um, we're talking about in the

00:02:34.559 - 00:02:54.770

heat 90 to 100 degrees. Uh walking around in circles in front of a store at that time, it was Killers and um, on the Roxboro Street, the corner of Roxboro and um do street. Um, one of those things really upset me because I'd rather been playing.

00:02:54.779 - 00:03:14.089

But at the time, um Mr Keillor did not have um any blacks working for him, but yet he was in a black neighborhood and that's where his money source came from. Um, my fa my father and others. Um, it was a thing of where we just,

00:03:14.250 - 00:03:34.160

they just got tired of it. Uh Union Baptist church is right beside it. So during that time, um, Reverend Crone was the pastor there and um, it was the start of a start of a lot of things. Big, Zach Floyd mckissick senior and Junior, his family,

00:03:34.169 - 00:03:52.820

all of them stayed right down the street, uh, to be Zac. So it was AAA type of um, family. Um, there was a lot of unity and trying to achieve these things, but after that, uh, Mr Keillor ended up selling the store to another white man,

00:03:52.830 - 00:04:10.750

Mr Broadway. Um I'm not exactly sure if he really felt as though he needed to, to actually um hiring the one black, you know. Um So he sold the store to Broadway Broadway, I think was petty too. But in the, in the end he ended up

00:04:10.759 - 00:04:29.929

hiring blacks and um that was another accomplishment. Another thing when I was young, I remember that a lot of folks believe that the first sit in was up in Greensboro. Um But really was right next door to Kla's Mayola ice cream parlor, you know, um I

00:04:29.980 - 00:04:46.019

think it was in the fifties, latter part of the fifties. And uh that was the first sit in really, uh because um the way things, you know, you weren't served, you know, there was a lot of things, colors and blacks, but then again, I was a

00:04:46.029 - 00:05:03.899

young boy still walking and looking and not understanding that folks were fighting for the rights, you know, the only thing I wanted to do was just play. But next thing, you know, my father was taking me here and there. Uh, he was really disappointed over the

00:05:03.910 - 00:05:22.519

fact that, um, a lot of the preachers in the area wouldn't, um, have the meetings when, you know, they wouldn't like to have meetings about, you know, civil rights meetings at their church. But Reverend Crone and eventually Reverend Crone died, but here comes Reverend Grady Davis.

00:05:23.390 - 00:05:39.980

And, um, and this was uh I call him a little short James Brown because he was feisty and he believed in the civil rights. So they ended up having the meetings there. So Union Baptist Church became in a sense one of the landmarks, you know, for

00:05:39.989 - 00:05:57.410

that. Um And by being a member of the church and mom and dad had made us go to church every Sunday and it's 52 Sundays in a year because it's 52 weeks in a year, you know, and sometimes I had to go to church 34 times

00:05:57.420 - 00:06:14.549

a week. I stay in church all Sunday. So, um um you know, a lot of things that, that, that was my training, my initiation and by being around these grown folks and how they were striving to try to get um the rights. There was a lot

00:06:14.559 - 00:06:36.790

of fear, fear of retaliation. Uh I remember when I was small too. Um I remember on one end of the corner of Dawood and Elizabeth, that was one of the congregation spots more of like the inner city part of uh North Durham because of you had

00:06:36.799 - 00:06:53.299

the, the grocery store and um little corner bar where, you know, k you know what I would call them, you know, we can get you some drinks, hot dogs and stuff like that. Barbershop, shoeshine, you know, funeral home. It was a thing of uh where, that's

00:06:53.309 - 00:07:15.500

where you would meet at the corner of Elizabeth Street and do and right at the other corner going toward the next block up which was uh Broadway store and Mayo is right at the corner of Roxboro and um do and I remember on the, when we

00:07:15.510 - 00:07:38.459

were at the corner of Elizabeth Street, these white boys came by in a old car and they had yelled out and threw something at us. Here it is um in our part North Durham, you know, the black section and they come through our section, throwing things

00:07:38.679 - 00:07:57.829

and yelling out ***, ***. Um Well, by that time, you know, it was a, there was enough pride and things going on. And by the time those boys got up to the next block, the other guys had, you know, had ran up and told them, you

00:07:57.839 - 00:08:08.369

know, like something was pointed at the guys you see at that point, I mean, you could actually see it. And when the boys got up there to the white guys got up there to the end of that block at that stop, like they had to stop.

00:08:09.209 - 00:08:21.010

And the other guys, the black guys were right on the corner. By the time the message had been relayed up there, they were throwing things at these guys before they got out of, out of uh North Durham. And I'm saying this is something here, but you

00:08:21.019 - 00:08:40.630

don't come into this area. You know, this is what we have is a lot of pride later on. Um, my father decided to organize or help organize, uh, the east end neighborhood council, uh, which involved with help, you know, organizing the, um, taking care of the

00:08:40.640 - 00:08:58.159

citizens. Um, to be Zac even went to City Hall and argued with the mayor, I think of the city manager, one of them. And, uh, until he and, you know, others, until he actually got that truck, they gave us a truck, you know, city garbage truck

00:08:58.169 - 00:09:17.669

and stuff so that we can actually go around in the neighborhoods on the weekends and, um, get all the trash and, um, old appliances out of the backyards where, um, dealing with, um, you know, we're talking about rats and snakes even went up under houses and

00:09:17.679 - 00:09:33.500

it was all free. Um, they never charged anything. The only thing that the people would give them was, uh, something to drink or a sandwich. That was it. I went around on one of those, uh, clean up campaigns with him because, uh, one was all I

00:09:33.510 - 00:09:48.630

could stand. I didn't want to spend my time, you know, I wanted to play, you know, but after I did that with him, I saw, um, there was a lot of folks that just were thanking him and, and, um, I sing some crying and a lot

00:09:48.640 - 00:10:07.570

of those things touch me. That, that's when I realized then that my father was the type that certificates were good. Um, folks could get presents that was good. Uh But the best, the best present or anything that you get can get from someone is uh gratification.

00:10:07.580 - 00:10:29.820

Thank you. But when you really know that you've touched someone, you could see the tears in their eyes and it was like a pure thing, totally pure. So from that point, I realized that when someone can thank you and they, and it's from their soul, they'll

00:10:29.830 - 00:10:46.239

pull these tears and it's tears of joy and that's the best, thank you that I've ever seen. And that's what he taught me. And then from that point on, um, I needed to, um, I was trying out for the basketball team at Durham High. Um, so

00:10:46.250 - 00:11:00.280

poor then at the time I, um, sneakers converses and by being poor, I could only just run, you know, uh use them all year long. So by the time school started and I had holes in the bottom and I was sliding all over the place when

00:11:00.289 - 00:11:14.280

it came to trying out for the team. Um, dad and mother worked during the day. So, um, I wasn't able to get my card and stuff, you know, because of the fact that you had to have a physical. So the next thing, you know, my father

00:11:14.289 - 00:11:33.169

started him and others started the East end Neighborhood health center, which was located right, be right on do street, uh, at, right beside east end school at that time was East End school. Do you remember what year that was? Um, not exactly. Not exactly. I just

00:11:33.179 - 00:12:01.140

remember that, um, um, had to be in, oh, hadn't been in the early sixties ladder, latter fifties because I was, um, I was in the, let's see, 10%. I graduated in 69. So it had to be in between 67 and 69. And he had started, um,

00:12:01.150 - 00:12:22.630

he and others had started the health clinic. And what got me was the fact that he had got doctors from Duke Hospital, um Memorial Hospital. Um, it was another hospital also, but the thing was these were interns and they would do their internship. They're free and

00:12:22.640 - 00:12:40.530

the clinic would open, I think at six o'clock in the evening, every evening and it was free for the poor, black and white. You know, you had drug addicts, you had, um, kids, um, white kids and stuff, you know, that didn't have and blacks didn't have

00:12:40.539 - 00:13:00.309

money enough to take exams to actually get, uh, into certain things at school. Um, you had folks that couldn't afford really, that was the purpose, folks, old folks and young folks that couldn't afford medical attention. And he got it, you know, he did it. I used

00:13:00.320 - 00:13:16.479

to love going up there just to see him, you know, just made me feel good, you know, and this was a house, you know, this was a two story house an hour, uh, to be exact from where I stayed, I could look at the backyard, you

00:13:16.489 - 00:13:32.590

know, of the house. So it was just like walking distance right over there. And it was amazing. And when he did that, it was another thing that um that really touched me, then it was just the continuous fights. Um You know, for rights, I think it

00:13:32.599 - 00:13:52.890

was um a vice president at one time of operation Breakthrough Ken Durham. Um He was one on the board for um UOC I UD I, and I'm not calling things these letters out because that's the way I remember it. Uh uh And it was um and

00:13:52.900 - 00:14:13.289

there was lots more he's been recognized by, I don't know how many organizations um in the um Durham area and maybe even out of that, I really just don't even know. So he sounds like he was a, a big community activist and my father was a

00:14:13.299 - 00:14:29.940

um advocator for civil rights, you know. Um And that was his, that was his thing. And yes, he was an activist along with the others. You know, to help, which I'm gonna help document also. Um So there would be more information about this later on too.

00:14:30.309 - 00:14:46.260

So, what, what did he do for a living outside of this work? What was his job to be exact? See, my father, um, he worked for colonial warehouses, uh which supplied all the colonial stores at that time. Uh They were out of Raleigh, that was the

00:14:46.270 - 00:15:02.679

home base and uh he would get up every morning, uh, had a self alarm. Uh, I don't know, I think maybe four o'clock or five, but he was up and, uh, that amazed me too. There was no clock to, and he just automatically got up and

00:15:02.690 - 00:15:17.739

they had a pool, little car pool and they went around to pick each other up. And, um, and he did so well. I had, it was so loved by the, this, the, the fellow and stuff, you know, the staff down at uh colonial warehouse that actually

00:15:17.750 - 00:15:35.510

made him a spokesman. I forgot the proper name for it, but he was, whenever there were any, he was the person that took it to the management. So he was a natural leader, a natural automatic, you know, and I started finding out things, uh, because he

00:15:35.520 - 00:15:53.010

used to sing with the hops and harmony. So I spent a lot of time every Sunday, not every Sunday. I used to beg him sometimes kinda go at WSRC at that time. Um, Doctor Jive. And Hester, um uh Ian, he all along with their WSRC uh

00:15:53.140 - 00:16:10.210

disc jockeys and that was the first time I had actually seen um Shirley Caesar. Shirley Caesar Stay North D at that time anyway, for she became famous, but everyone would congregate right there at the uh at the uh WSRC station and you hear the voices of

00:16:10.219 - 00:16:27.919

the Cooper for the sensational Nightingales, even the Mighty Clouds and um original Blind Boys. Um I can just drop them, just drop all these names before they became all famous and hops a harmony right there with them. And WSRC was a local station and it was

00:16:27.929 - 00:16:45.580

uh on Club Boulevard Big. Um, it was over in the area where I think the cable vision place is now, you know, where folks pay the bills, you see and they wouldn't have never known, you know, back in that little area there was this black radio

00:16:45.590 - 00:17:09.849

station, WSRC. Um Well, tell me a little bit about uh your mother. Yeah. Well, Mom Mary G Holman, um, very feisty as I heard. Um, she was in a sense, the backbone of the home, you know, her main thing was, well, she didn't take any junk

00:17:09.859 - 00:17:28.000

off anyone. Um, the pride level for my mother and father was quite high. Um I guess, uh being poor and things being taken away from you, you know, made you stronger and wanna make things sure things were uh better for your Children and my mother, she

00:17:28.010 - 00:17:48.209

was, um, she worked for Scott and Roberts for years as a seamstress and inspector. And then later on she, um, worked for Durham Drapery. And during that time they didn't have any blacks working, uh, whatsoever, but she got over there and she was, became the first

00:17:48.219 - 00:18:03.459

black that they hired and whenever something wasn't wrong wasn't right, she would go ahead on and start a fuss and let them know that she doesn't have to take this from, you know, because they treat her like a, you know, like a slave type situation or

00:18:03.469 - 00:18:16.660

a maid or whatever they talk, say whatever they want because black white folks at that time would speak to you as though you're not a human being, you are a slave. Um Now you couldn't speak to my mother that way. You see, and she was the

00:18:16.670 - 00:18:33.709

type that it didn't matter if she was outnumbered, she will fight to the end. And um a lot of folks thought she was only, you know, like I said, that feisty and you want to mess with anyone that's feisty. But she became the first one to

00:18:33.719 - 00:18:50.119

integrate um D Draper at that time and also opened the doors for others, other black uh women to actually be hired there. Really blacks. So that was one of the marvels, you understand that uh um that I loved, you know, and that's been embedded in me.

00:18:50.469 - 00:19:07.339

Um And um one of the other things is, I found out later on that she had been on the board for Lincoln Hospital and during that time, which is called Lincoln Health Center now, uh but during that time, um which that's where I was born. Uh

00:19:07.349 - 00:19:27.040

And usually mainly any when black, you know, were born in Durham would probably have been born in Lincoln back in those days. Um uh which carries a lot of history there of the involvement since I was with daddy the most, most of the time, uh mother's

00:19:27.050 - 00:19:41.130

involvement. Um I'm just here as my later years starting to find out all the things, you know, at least remembering some of the things that she had done and where she had been, but I always knew that she was a fighter. So it's a list of

00:19:41.140 - 00:19:57.869

things, you know, that um that she has done and um but she was mainly raising the kids and making sure everything was right in the neighborhood. Sounds like you come from a pretty dynamic family. Um So, uh tell me a little bit about your brothers and

00:19:57.880 - 00:20:19.530

sisters. Well, I don't have any brothers, but I do have two sisters that are younger than I am. Uh Cathy Holman, a be exact Cathy Vendetta Holman and Anita Latrell Holman. Um and at this time, um um what my cat that stays in Fay and um

00:20:19.660 - 00:20:39.839

Anita, she's still here in Durham. Um But during the years, um their involvement was mainly just about everything in church, you know. Um, both of them graduated, you understand, my sister, both of them have, have degrees, I think. Um, uh, Ky has a degree in biology

00:20:39.849 - 00:21:06.439

and my baby sister, Anita has a degree in radiology. Um, it was a thing where education, um, was a must. Uh, bringing in ac is no good, bringing in ad or F was unthinkable because that brought out the switch of the belt, you know, no bad

00:21:06.449 - 00:21:26.239

grades. So, um my sisters, like I said, they mainly, their main thing was just being girls um participate in things, you know, that they could participate in, but mainly that was it. I was so busy being with my father. Um, and when my father and mother

00:21:26.250 - 00:21:42.130

were at work, um I think, uh they call it latch key kids, you know, where the parents were away from home and, you know, they raised themselves and I was, um, I was more like the mother and father because when mom and dad was at work,

00:21:42.140 - 00:22:04.760

I actually, I raised my sisters and my sisters and um, we had a lot of advantages, you know. So you s uh started earlier by saying that, um you uh just got your degree and you want to um devote uh your time and energy to collecting

00:22:04.770 - 00:22:22.939

information about the community. Kind of similar to what we're doing. Yes, to be exact. Um What had happened was, um, it brought this about when you see I, I watched my father take his last breath at that time. I refused to believe that, that, that was

00:22:22.949 - 00:22:38.020

the end of an era. I look at it right now still, you know, I know he's gone home and that, I look at it as a vacation that he won't return from. But the main thing was he had done so much and, and a lot of

00:22:38.030 - 00:22:57.959

folks don't know about it and I have seen others, you know, um receive wars and recognition. And I'm saying, my father's done 10 times as much, you know, he's helped a lot of folks get to the point of places where they are today, you know, and

00:22:58.930 - 00:23:12.599

he became an unsung hero. Uh And right now, if I was to just for him to even know that I was going to bring attention to what he has done the good things that he's done, you know, not only for me but all for other kids

00:23:12.609 - 00:23:29.010

and their Children and, and, and, um their families and stuff at this time, you know. You know, his thing is let the, let the work I've done, speak for me, you know, but he was, uh, he, he, he was a foots stone. He helped with a

00:23:29.020 - 00:23:47.390

lot for the city of Durham. So I want him to, uh I want folks to know that because at this time, the kids have gotten to a point where, um, pride is not there. They don't exactly know where, um central actually started. You try to have

00:23:47.400 - 00:24:00.250

Founders Day but some don't attend, you have all these other organizations that don't exist, some don't exist now and a lot of people have died and they've taken a lot of this pride to the grave. Uh A lot of old folks at this time don't get

00:24:00.260 - 00:24:13.849

the respect from young folks because young folks don't believe in giving that much. So that means the old folks have gotten to a point, the elderly, as I should say, have gotten to the point now where they think it's a waste of time to try to

00:24:13.859 - 00:24:25.229

let the kids know. Well, this is what I used to do. This is where I come from. This is what happened. This is how come you got what you have, you know, but then again, when you look at the things that they did, even the elderly

00:24:25.239 - 00:24:41.510

who may not have much to show, you know, other than the pride and what they did inside the kids are more based on things that are material. If you don't have this and that, you know, then your accomplishment didn't do anything, you know, but what he

00:24:41.520 - 00:24:56.979

did was open doors. So right now, what I want to do is, uh, make sure that everyone, not just my father, everyone that he worked with, everyone that he touched. I wanna make sure that it's documented out there. You know, this is why these are the

00:24:56.989 - 00:25:16.449

group of people, you know, that fought for your rights, you know, that fought for the things to be the way they are now, you know, not only did it place this type of building here or establish this, it also opened the imagination, you know, for others

00:25:16.459 - 00:25:33.660

to think why. You know. So right now, like I said, it's a lot of things and it's not just in North Durham, we're talking about movement, all movements that started all around, you know. And right now, my thing is that everyone is doing something, you know,

00:25:33.670 - 00:25:52.609

to try to accomplish certain goals and they're the links in the chain, but the these links, they're not connected. So my plan is to connect the links, you know, and bring this establishment together, you working on this. OK? Then we're gonna put it with this, you

00:25:52.619 - 00:26:07.319

know, they're working on this. And right now the separation of things is, is where the way it's been going continuously, everyone is going forward in this, in this line, but no one is touching, you know, I guess it's because this person wants to take credit for

00:26:07.329 - 00:26:25.089

this and the person wants to take credit for that. But, but my main thing is to bring those links together so that everything will be strong. Well, um talk, can you talk a little bit about uh I don't wanna hold you much uh where Durham is

00:26:25.099 - 00:26:49.479

today um mhm Compared to where it was then. Well, back then. It was, uh, a situation where you can leave your door open, you can go to sleep in your neighborhood with your door open. A lot of folks may have slept on the porch if it

00:26:49.489 - 00:27:03.369

was warm or something like that and just dealt with mosquitoes. Um, you knew that this person stayed down the street around the corner, you knew his, his people or something like that. He couldn't, you didn't want him to go home staggering or something, you know, if

00:27:03.380 - 00:27:20.050

he was drinking or something like that, he had a home there, you know. Um And then it became to a point where um where folks were, like I said, it was a lot of church going. Uh it was a lot of drinking and things going on

00:27:20.060 - 00:27:37.439

and you see a lot of folks that was a lot of drugs and stuff, you know, at that time. But now, now things have shifted because the kids have found another savior, you know, in, in hip hop. But as far as um things go, um say,

00:27:37.449 - 00:28:06.479

for instance, let's take the political field back then. It was blacks against whites. Um Now it's a dual situation where is blacks against whites and blacks against blacks, whites, against whites, you know. So all of a sudden there's a uh and for personal needs for whatever

00:28:06.489 - 00:28:25.219

uh city, the city itself have leaders where, you know, they're, they're arguing amongst themselves, you know, disagreeing with each other about certain things, accusing each other of things, you know, you know, personal arena, you know, vendettas, you know, and mud slinging. And I'm saying the reason

00:28:25.229 - 00:28:38.319

that you're up there is to try to help us, that's how come you were voted. And, you know, we are, we're down here on this level fussing with ourselves because we can't get things organized. Now, we, we have folks up there, you know, that we voted

00:28:38.329 - 00:28:56.040

in arguing with each other doing the same thing, you know, and it's not going anywhere back then. There was more of, um, over togetherness and trying to be part of something. You know. Now you see it's a situation where no one wants to be and that

00:28:56.050 - 00:29:15.109

part was one big part, but everyone wants to be a piece of something. You know, now, not a part but a piece, you know, of the pie, but not the entire thing of a, more a personal gain back then. It wasn't, uh, the personal gain was

00:29:15.119 - 00:29:37.199

the, was the issues at hand, you know, um, we progressed and education as far as going forward. Um, but we're still behind on that. Um, preachers, you know, uh, they're not preaching the same thing, you know. Uh, a lot of preachers are going into the business

00:29:37.209 - 00:29:53.800

looking at his business. You know, personally, I don't think that you have to get paid, um, to speak the word. Now, if you wanna make it your living, you know, and that's what you wanna just dictate, dedicate things to, then we can, uh, you know, deal

00:29:53.810 - 00:30:06.069

with a regular salary if you're gonna dedicate and take care of me on a religious basis, you know? But when it becomes a thing where you have to have a little extra, this and extra that, I think it's just too much, you know. But as far

00:30:06.079 - 00:30:19.369

as everything else goes later on, maybe if we have another interview when there's more time, you know, I can have uh more things organized because you just wouldn't believe all the things that's in my mind, you know, over the years that have accumulated that I must

00:30:19.380 - 00:30:34.469

place out there. So, if you want to be part of that, there's no problem, you understand with it. All right. Well, thank you. Thank you for your time. I appreciate it. Oh, and my motto is that it's in the contract. Everything we do is in a

00:30:34.479 - 00:31:01.630

contract. Sounds good. I need to, uh I need to. So can we start begin by you just kind of stating who you are? My name is Luther macduffie Homan Junior and I'm from Durham. Um to be executive, was raised in North Durham. My father is Mac

00:31:01.640 - 00:31:28.069

Luther mcduffie Holman Senior and most folks know him as Macduffie Holman a Duff, you know, as I was saying, um right now, um I just completed my degree and uh sociology and I will be working on my master's in sociology have three more courses and I

00:31:28.079 - 00:31:47.380

have my bachelors in social work. I'm planning on dedicating the rest of my time um to the fulfillment and documentation of the civil rights movement. Um and document the things that my father and um everyone that associated with them and to show and bring out the

00:31:47.390 - 00:32:09.260

unsung heroes um that were very involved and to uh oh a high rate places put us in a place of where we are at this time. Um What can you talk a little bit about what you remember about, uh, growing up? Uh And during the movement?

00:32:10.239 - 00:32:30.550

Yes. Um, like most kids at the time, I really didn't understand uh what all the fuss was. I know that it was a lot of, um, discrepancies between the white and blacks and, um, my father was the type that he had a lot of pride and

00:32:30.560 - 00:32:54.079

everyone around him, um, had that same type of pride. He didn't feel as though that, um, there was a equal, there was equality was not the same. Um, when I was young, I remember walking on the picket lines, you know, and we're talking about 78, nine

00:32:54.089 - 00:33:13.589

years old. Um, we're talking about in the heat 90 to 100 degrees. Uh walking around in circles in front of a store at that time. It was Killers and, um, on the Roxboro street, the corner of Roxboro and, um, do street. Um, one of those things

00:33:13.599 - 00:33:32.699

really upset me because I'd rather been playing. But at the time, um, Mr Keillor did not have um, any blacks working for him, but yet he was in a black neighborhood and that's where his money source came from. Um, my fa my father and others, um,

00:33:34.550 - 00:33:52.329

it was a thing of where we just, they just got tired of it. Uh, Union Baptist Church is right beside it. So, during that time, um, Reverend Crone was the pastor there and, um, it was the start of a start of a lot of things. Big

00:33:52.500 - 00:34:10.060

Zach Floyd mckissick senior and Junior, his family, all of them stayed right down the street, uh, the Big Zack. So it was AAA type of, um, family. Um, there was a lot of unity and trying to achieve these things, but after that, uh, Mr Keillor ended

00:34:10.070 - 00:34:31.550

up selling the store to another white man, Mr Broadway. Um, I'm not exactly sure if he really felt as though he needed to, to actually, um, hiring the one black, you know. Um, so he sold the store to Broadway Broadway, I think was petty too. But

00:34:31.560 - 00:34:46.590

in the, in the end he ended up hiring blacks. And, um, that was another accomplishment. Another thing when I was young, I remember that a lot of folks believe that the first sit in was up in Greensboro. Um, but really was right next door to Kla's

00:34:47.520 - 00:35:05.939

Mayola Ice Cream parlor, you know. Um, I think it was in the fifties, latter part of the fifties. And, uh, that was the first sit in really, uh, because, um, the way things, you know, you weren't served, you know, there was a lot of things, colors

00:35:05.949 - 00:35:22.739

and blacks. But then again, I was a young boy still walking and looking and not understanding that folks were fighting for the rights. You know, the only thing I wanted to do was just play. But next thing, you know, my father was taking me here and

00:35:22.750 - 00:35:41.610

there. Uh, he was really disappointed over the fact that, um, a lot of the preachers in the area wouldn't, um, have the meetings when, you know, they wouldn't like to have meetings about, you know, civil rights meetings at their church. But Reverend Crone and eventually Reverend

00:35:41.620 - 00:35:58.870

Crone die, but here comes Reverend Grady Davis and, um, and this was, uh I call him a little short James Brown because he was feisty and he believed in the civil rights. So they ended up having the meetings there. So Union Baptist church became in a

00:35:58.879 - 00:36:16.280

sense one of the landmarks, you know, for that. Um And by being a member of the church and mom and dad have made us go to church every Sunday and it's 52 Sundays in a year because it's 52 weeks in a year, you know, and sometimes

00:36:16.290 - 00:36:34.090

I had to go to church 34 times a week. I stay in church all Sunday So, um um you know, a lot of things that, that, that was my training, my initiation and by being around these grown folks and how they were striving to try to

00:36:34.100 - 00:36:55.939

get um the rights. There was a lot of fear, uh fear of retaliation. Uh I remember when I was small too. Um I remember on one end of the corner of Dward and Elizabeth, that was one of the congregation spots more of like the inner city

00:36:55.949 - 00:37:13.739

part of uh North Durham because of you had the, the grocery store and um little corner bar where, you know, k uh what I would call them, you know, we can get you some drinks, hot dogs and stuff like that, barbershop, shoeshine, you know, funeral home.

00:37:13.830 - 00:37:34.500

It was a thing of uh where that's where you would meet at the corner of Elizabeth Street and do and right at the other corner going toward the next block up which was uh Broadway store and Meola right at the corner of Roxboro. And um do

00:37:35.550 - 00:37:57.560

and I remember on the, when we were at the corner of um Elizabeth Street, these white boys came by in a old car and they had yelled out and threw something at us. Here. It is um in our part North Durham, you know, the black section

00:37:57.840 - 00:38:18.149

and they come through our section throwing things and yelling out ***, ***. Um Well, by that time, you know, it was a, there was enough pride and things going on. And by the time those boys got up to the next block, the other guys had, you

00:38:18.159 - 00:38:28.060

know, had ran up and told them, you know, like something was pointed at the guys you see at that point, I mean, you could actually see it. And when the boys got up there to the white guys got up there to the end of that block

00:38:28.070 - 00:38:41.439

at that stop, like they had to stop. And the other guys, the black guys were right on the corner. By the time the message had been relayed up there, they were throwing things at these guys before they got out of, out of uh North Durham. And

00:38:41.449 - 00:39:00.479

I'm saying this is something here but you don't come into this area. You know, this is what we have is a lot of pride later on. Um my father decided to organize or help organize uh the East End Neighborhood council, uh which involved with help, you

00:39:00.489 - 00:39:17.399

know, organizing the um taking care of the citizens. Um to be exactly. Even went to City Hall and argued with the mayor, I think of the city manager, one of them. And uh until he and you know, others until he actually got that truck, they gave

00:39:17.409 - 00:39:35.830

us a truck, you know, city garbage truck and stuff so that we can actually go around in the neighborhoods on the weekends and um get all the trash and um old appliances out of the backyards where, um, dealing with, um, you know, we're talking about rats

00:39:35.840 - 00:39:53.780

and snakes even went up under houses and it was all free. Um, they never charged anything. The only thing that the people would give them was, uh, something to drink or a sandwich. That was it. I went around on one of those, uh, clean up campaigns

00:39:53.790 - 00:40:07.389

with him because, uh, one was all I could stand. I didn't want to spend my time, you know, I wanted to play, you know, but after I did that with him, I saw, um, there was a lot of folks that just were thanking him and, and,

00:40:07.399 - 00:40:26.570

um, I sing some crying and a lot of those things touch me. That, that's when I realized then that my father was the type that certificates were good. Um, folks could get presents that was good. Uh, but the best, the best present or anything that you

00:40:26.580 - 00:40:48.090

get can get from someone is, uh, gratification. Thank you. But when you really know that you've touched someone, you could see the tears in their eyes and it was like a pure thing. Totally pure. So, from that point, I realized that when someone can thank you

00:40:49.280 - 00:41:05.050

and they, and it's from their soul, they'll pull these tears and it's tears of joy. And that's the best. Thank you that I've ever seen. And that's what he taught me. And then from that point on, um, I needed to, um, I was trying out for

00:41:05.060 - 00:41:21.050

the basketball team at Durham High. Um, so poor then at the time I, um, sneakers converses and by being poor I could only just run, you know, uh, use them all year long. So by the time school started and I had holes in the bottom and

00:41:21.060 - 00:41:34.419

I was sliding all over the place when it came to trying out for the team. Um, dad and mother worked during the day. So, um I wasn't able to get my card and stuff, you know, because of the fact that you had to have a physical.

00:41:34.959 - 00:41:49.550

So the next thing, you know, my father started him and others started the East End Neighborhood Health Center which was located right be right on do street uh at right beside east end school at that time was East End School. Do you remember what year that

00:41:49.560 - 00:42:17.159

was? Um Not exactly, not exactly. I just remember that um um had to be in this, oh, had been the early sixties ladder ladder fifties because I was, um I was in the, let's see, 10, I graduated in 69. So it had to be in between

00:42:18.320 - 00:42:41.850

67 and 69. And he had started, um, he and others had started a health clinic. And what got me was the fact that he had got doctors from Duke Hospital, um Memorial Hospital. Um It was another hospital also, but the thing was these were interns and

00:42:41.860 - 00:43:00.520

they would do their internship. They're free and the clinic would open, I think at six o'clock in the evening, every evening and it was free for the poor, black and white. You know, you had drug addicts, you had, um, kids, um, white kids and stuff, you

00:43:00.530 - 00:43:19.699

know, that didn't have, and blacks didn't have money enough to take exams to actually get, uh, into certain things at school. Um, you had folks that couldn't afford really, that was the purpose, folks, old folks and young folks that couldn't afford medical attention. And he got

00:43:19.709 - 00:43:34.530

it, you know, he did it. I used to love going up there just to see him. You know, it just made me feel good, you know, and this was a house, you know, this was a two story house an hour, uh, to be exact from where

00:43:34.540 - 00:43:50.290

I stayed, I could look at the backyard, you know, of the house. So it was just like walking distance right over there and it was amazing. And when he did that, it was another thing that, um, that really touched me then it was just a continuous

00:43:50.300 - 00:44:10.879

fights. Um, you know, for rights, I think it was, um, a vice president at one time of operation Breakthrough Ken Durham. Um, he was one on the board for you. Um UOC I UD I, and I'm not calling things these letters out because that's the way

00:44:10.889 - 00:44:30.489

I remember it. Uh, uh, and it was, um, and there was lots more he's been recognized by, I don't know how many organizations um in the um Durham area and maybe even out of that, I really just don't even know. So he sounds like he was

00:44:30.500 - 00:44:49.439

a, a big community activist and my father was a um advocator for civil rights, you know. Um And that was his, that was his thing. And yes, he was an activist along with the others, you know, to help, which I'm gonna help document also. Um So

00:44:49.449 - 00:45:04.429

there would be more information about this later on too. So what, what did he do for a living outside of this work? What was his job to be exact? See, my father, um he worked for colonial warehouses, uh which they supplied all the colonial stores at

00:45:04.439 - 00:45:21.560

that time. Uh They were out of Raleigh, that was the home base and uh he would get up every morning, uh had a self alarm. Uh I don't know, I think maybe four o'clock or five, but he was up and uh that amazed me too. There

00:45:21.570 - 00:45:35.929

was no clock to him and he just automatically got up and they had a pool, little car pool and they went around to pick each other up. And, um, and he did so well, I had, it was so loved by the, this, the, the fellow and

00:45:35.939 - 00:45:51.969

stuff, you know, the staff down at the colonial warehouse that actually made him a spokesman. I forgot the proper name for it. But he was, when there were any grievances, he was the person that took it to the management. So he was a natural leader, a

00:45:51.979 - 00:46:08.459

natural automatic, you know, and I started finding out things, uh, because he used to sing with the hops and harmony. So I spent a lot of time every Sunday, not every Sunday. I used to beg him sometimes kinda go at WSRC at that time. Um Doctor

00:46:08.469 - 00:46:27.570

Jive and Hester, um uh Irvin, he all along with that WRC uh disc jockeys and that was the first time I had actually seen um Shirley Caesar. Shirley Caesar. Stay North D at that time anyway, for, she became famous, but everyone would congregate right there at

00:46:27.580 - 00:46:45.629

the uh at the uh WSRC station and you hear the voices of the Cooper for the Sensational Nightingales, even the Mighty Clouds and um original Blind Boys. Um I can just drop them, just drop all these names before they became all famous and hops a harmony

00:46:45.639 - 00:47:03.290

right there with them. And WSRC was a local station and it was uh on Club Boulevard, Big Zac. Um It was over in the area where I think the cable vision place is now, you know, where folks pay the bills you see and they wouldn't have

00:47:03.300 - 00:47:26.540

never known, you know, back in that little area there was this black radio station, WSRC. Um Well, tell me a little bit about uh your mother here with Mom Mary G Holman. Um very feisty as I heard. Um, she was in a sense, the backbone of

00:47:26.550 - 00:47:45.159

the home, you know, her main thing was, well, she didn't take any junk off anyone. Um, the pride level for my mother and father was quite high. Um, I guess, uh, being poor and things being taken away from you, you know, made you stronger and wanna

00:47:45.169 - 00:48:04.149

make things sure things were, uh, better for your Children. And my mother, she was, um, she worked for Scott and Roberts for years as a seamstress and inspector. And then later on, she um worked for Durham Drapery. And during that time, they didn't have any blacks

00:48:04.159 - 00:48:22.129

working uh whatsoever, but she got over there and she was, became the first black that they hired and whenever something wasn't wrong wasn't right. She would go ahead on and start a fuss and let them know that she doesn't have to take this from, you know,

00:48:22.139 - 00:48:35.120

because they treat her like a, you know, like a slave type situation or a maid or whatever they talk, say whatever they want. Because black white folks at that time would speak to you as though you're not a human being, you are a slave. Um Now

00:48:35.129 - 00:48:52.820

you couldn't speak to my mother that way. You see, and she was the type that it didn't matter if she was outnumbered, she will fight to the end. And um a lot of folks thought she was only, you know, like I said, that feisty and you

00:48:52.830 - 00:49:07.310

want to mess with anyone that's feisty, but she became the first one to integrate um D Draper at that time and also opened the doors for others, other black uh women to actually be hired there, really blacks. So that was one of the marvels, you understand

00:49:07.320 - 00:49:23.860

that uh um that I loved, you know, and that's been embedded in me. Um And um one of the other things is I found out later on that she had been on the board for Lincoln Hospital and during that time, which is called Lincoln Health Center

00:49:24.090 - 00:49:42.540

now, uh but during that time, um which that's where I was born. Uh And usually mainly any when black, you know, were born in Durham would probably have been born in Lincoln back in those days. Um uh which carries a lot of history there, of the

00:49:42.550 - 00:50:00.189

involvement since I was with daddy the most, most of the time. Uh mother's involvement. Um I'm just here as my later years starting to find out all the things, you know, at least remembering some of the things that she had done and where she had been,

00:50:00.199 - 00:50:14.489

but I always knew that she was a fighter. So it's a list of things you know, that um that she has done and um but she was mainly raising the kids and making sure everything was right in the neighborhood. Sounds like you come from a pretty

00:50:14.500 - 00:50:33.500

dynamic family. Um So uh tell tell me a little bit about your brothers and sisters. Well, I don't have any brothers but I do have two sisters that are younger than I am. Uh, Cathy Holman. A be exact Cathy Vendetta Holman and Anita Latrell Holman. Um,

00:50:34.290 - 00:50:57.110

and at this time, um, um, what my cat that stays in Fay and, um, Anita, she's still here in Durham. Um, but during the years, um, their involvement was mainly just about everything in church, you know. Um both of them graduated, you understand, my sister, both

00:50:57.120 - 00:51:19.290

of them have, have degrees, I think um uh Cathy has a degree in biology and my baby sister, Anita has a degree in radiology. Um It was a thing where education um was a must. Uh bringing in ac is no good bringing in ad or f

00:51:20.239 - 00:51:42.469

was unthinkable because that brought out the switch of the belt, you know, no bad grades. So, um my sisters, like I said, they mainly their main thing was just being girls um participate in things, you know, that they could participate in. But mainly that was it.

00:51:42.820 - 00:52:00.459

I was so busy being with my father. Um And when my father and mother were at work, um I think uh they call it latch key kids, you know, where the parents were away from home and, you know, they raised themselves and I was um I

00:52:00.469 - 00:52:17.189

was more like the mother and father because when mom and dad was at work, I actually, I raised my sisters and my sisters and, um, and we had a lot of advantages, you know. So you s, uh, started earlier by saying that, um, you, uh, just

00:52:17.199 - 00:52:38.790

got your degree. Yes. And you want to, um, devote, uh, your time and energy to collecting information about the community kind of similar to what we're doing. Yes. To be exact. Um, what had happened was, um, that brought this about when you see, I, I watched

00:52:38.800 - 00:52:53.000

my father take his last breath at that time. I refused to believe that, that that was the end of an era. I look at it right now still, you know, I know he's gone home and that I look at it as a vacation that he won't

00:52:53.010 - 00:53:14.899

return from. But the main thing was he had done so much and, and a lot of folks don't know about it and I have seen others, you know, um receive wars and recognition and I'm saying, my father's done 10 times as much, you know, he's helped

00:53:14.909 - 00:53:30.449

a lot of folks get to the point of places where they are today, you know, and he became an unsung hero. Uh And right now, if I was to just for him to even know that I was going to bring attention to what he has done

00:53:30.459 - 00:53:45.409

the good things that he's done, you know, not only for me but all for other kids and their Children and, and, and um their families and stuff at this time, you know. You know, his thing is let the, let the work, I've done speak for me,

00:53:45.850 - 00:54:01.330

you know, but he was, uh, he, he, he was a foots stone. He helped with a lot for the city of Durham. So I want him to, uh, I want folks to know that because at this time the kids have gotten to a point where, um,

00:54:01.340 - 00:54:18.659

pride is not there. They don't exactly know where, um, central actually started. You try to have Founders Day but some don't attend. You have all these other organizations that don't exist, some don't exist now and a lot of people have died and they've taken a lot

00:54:18.669 - 00:54:30.639

of this pride to the grave. Uh, a lot of old folks at this time don't get the respect from young folks because young folks don't believe in giving that much. So that means the old folks have gotten to a point, the elderly, as I should say,

00:54:30.689 - 00:54:41.929

have gotten to the point now where they think it's a waste of time to try to let the kids know. Well, this is what I used to do. This is where I come from. This is what happened. This is how come you got what you have,

00:54:42.120 - 00:54:59.129

you know, but then again, when you look at the things that they did, even the elderly who may not have much to show, you know, other than the pride and what they did inside the kids are more based on things that are material. If you don't

00:54:59.139 - 00:55:14.050

have this and that, you know, then your accomplishment didn't do anything, you know. But what he did was open doors. So right now, what I want to do is, uh, make sure that everyone, not just my father, everyone that he worked with, everyone that he touched.

00:55:14.149 - 00:55:29.340

I wanna make sure that it's documented out there. You know, this is why these are the group of people, you know, that fought for your rights, you know, that fought for the things to be the way they are now, you know, not only did it place

00:55:29.350 - 00:55:48.169

this type of building here or establish this, it also opened the imagination, you know, for others to think why. You know. So right now, like I said, it's a lot of things and it's not just in North Durham, we're talking about movement, all movements that started

00:55:48.179 - 00:56:08.939

all around, you know, and right now, my thing is that everyone is doing something, you know, to try to accomplish certain goals and they're the links in the chain, but the these links they're not connected. So my plan is to connect the links, you know, and

00:56:08.949 - 00:56:24.879

bring this establishment together you working on this. OK. Then we're gonna put it with this, you know, they're working on this. And right now the separation of things is, is where the way it's been going continuously. Everyone is going forward in this, in this line but

00:56:24.889 - 00:56:41.419

no one is touching, you know, I guess it's because this person wants to take credit for this and the person wants to take credit for that. But, but my main thing is to bring those links together so that everything will be strong. Well, um, talk, can

00:56:41.429 - 00:57:06.949

you talk a little bit about? Uh I don't wanna hold you much uh where Durham is today. Um ok, compared to where it was then. Well, back then it was, uh, a situation where you can leave your door open, you can go to sleep in your

00:57:06.959 - 00:57:22.419

neighborhood with your door open. A lot of folks may have slept on the porch if it was warm or something like that and just dealt with mosquitoes. Um, you knew that this person stayed down the street around the corner, you knew his, his people or something

00:57:22.429 - 00:57:36.030

like that. He couldn't, you didn't want him to go home staggering or something, you know, if he was drinking or something like that, he had a home there, you know. Um, and then it became to a point where, um, where folks were, like I said, it

00:57:36.040 - 00:57:50.889

was a lot of church going, uh, it was a lot of drinking and things going on and you see a lot of folks that was a lot of drugs and stuff, you know, at that time, but now, now things have shifted because the kids have found

00:57:50.899 - 00:58:21.260

another savior, you know, in, in hip hop but as far as, um, things go, um, say, for instance, let's take the political field back then. It was blacks against whites. Um Now it's a dual situation where is blacks against whites and blacks against blacks, whites against

00:58:21.270 - 00:58:39.889

whites? You know, so all of a sudden there's a, uh, and for personal needs for whatever uh city, the city itself have leaders where, you know, they're, they're arguing amongst themselves, you know, disagreeing with each other about certain things, accusing each other of things, you know,

00:58:40.070 - 00:58:55.830

you know, personal arena, you know, vendettas, you know, and mud slinging. And I'm saying the reason that you're up there is to try to help us, that's how come you were voted. And, you know, we are, we're down here on this level fussing with ourselves because

00:58:55.840 - 00:59:11.590

we can't get things organized. Now we, we have folks up there, you know, that we voted in arguing with each other doing the same thing, you know, and it's not going anywhere back then. There was more of, um over togetherness and trying to be part of

00:59:11.600 - 00:59:30.709

something, you know. Now you see it's a situation where no one wants to be and that part was one big part, but everyone wants to be a piece of something. You know, now, not a part but a piece, you know, of the pie, but not the

00:59:30.719 - 00:59:54.270

entire thing of a more a personal gain back then. It wasn't, uh the personal gain was the was the issues at hand, you know, um, we progressed and education as far as going forward. Um, but we're still behind on that, um, preachers, you know, uh, they're

00:59:54.280 - 01:00:10.699

not preaching the same thing, you know. Uh, a lot of preachers are going into the business looking at his business. You know, personally, I don't think that you have to get paid, um, to speak the word. Now, if you wanna make it your living, you know,

01:00:10.709 - 01:00:23.100

and that's what you wanna just dictate, dedicate things to, then we can, uh, you know, deal with a regular salary if you're gonna dedicate and take care of me on a religious basis, you know, but when it becomes a thing where you have to have a

01:00:23.110 - 01:00:36.669

little extra this and extra that I think it's just too much, you know, but as far as everything else goes later on, maybe if we have another interview when there's more time, you know, I can have uh more things organized because you just wouldn't believe all

01:00:36.679 - 01:00:51.169

the things that's in my mind, you know, over the years that have accumulated that I must place out there. So if you want to be part of that, there's no problem, you understand with it. All right. Well, thank you. Thank you for your time. I appreciate

01:00:51.179 - 01:01:03.199

it. Oh, and my motto is that it's in the contract. Everything we do is in a contract sounds good. I need to, uh I need to