00:00:07.340 - 00:00:32.180

Today is January 19th. We're at Saint Joseph's AM E Church where um the civil rights reunion, the civil rights workers reunion has just taken place. There was a lunch and uh the uh a commemorative service with Reverend Mack from Winston Salem giving, giving the address. I'm

00:00:32.189 - 00:00:50.380

sitting here today to interview Oren Marsh who was the musician and has been the musician for the civil rights workers reunion for the last four or five years. And this is Cathy Abernathy and uh we'll talk about his um orientation to the civil rights workers reunion

00:00:50.430 - 00:01:10.449

as well as his life in Durham and his comments about civil rights, Mister Marsh. Have you lived in Durham all your life ever since I was born? That's great. And so what schools did you attend? Um I attended Whitted school which later became Hillside, which is

00:01:10.459 - 00:01:33.599

now torn down. Um I started school at age five because my birthday is in November and that created somewhat of a problem. But my mother was insistent that I go to school because I was attending Scarborough Nursery and the teachers told my mother um that it

00:01:33.610 - 00:01:47.019

was a waste of time not being in school because everything they were teaching all the other kids I already knew and she did, insisted that she did not want me to have to wait another whole year before going to school. So she had a confrontation with

00:01:47.029 - 00:02:07.610

the principal and she won and I attended with it when I was five. When I got to the fourth grade. Our family moved in the county and I wind up going to Pearson Town School, which is now where Federal Street school sits. It was a clapboard

00:02:07.620 - 00:02:23.389

building. It had potbelly stoves in their classrooms. They had two classes per room. Uh, 1st and 2nd, 3rd and 4th, 5th and 6th, 7th and 8th. We didn't have a cafeteria. We had to walk up the street and buy soup. Uh We played in the woods

00:02:23.399 - 00:02:40.610

behind the school. Uh We caught the bus before a day in the morning. We had three buses. Our buses crossed the Chatham County line, the Wake County line and the Orange County Line to pick up students. Uh, we had three buses, 2154 and 62. What a

00:02:40.759 - 00:03:00.630

memory. Um The principal was Mr Jw Davidson. Uh, my first teacher was, I went to the fourth grade at wit it in the, in the second half of the fourth grade at Pearson Town. My teacher was Mrs Rogers who was about 90 still alive. Um There's

00:03:00.639 - 00:03:18.339

much to be remembered. Teachers were role models in those days. Teachers were were like gods. Teachers were like gods. I was very inspired by some of my teachers. Um three in particular, my music teacher was Margaret Shen, who was the daughter of the late Doctor CC

00:03:18.350 - 00:03:38.429

Spald and founder of North Li Mu, one of the founders of Northline Mu M Farmers Bank. You're a professional musician. And when did you first know that music was your particular talent? I didn't, my mother uh perceived that um, when I was two years old, she

00:03:39.389 - 00:03:57.949

found me drumming with my fingers and humming and she perceived that I would be playing the piano soon. My father worked out of town in the shipyards and he'd come home about once or twice a month because jobs were not plentiful in Durham at that time.

00:03:58.720 - 00:04:21.290

And she spent a whole $60.60 whole dollars for piano and brought it, had it brought to our house and I couldn't even climb up on the piano stool. I had to be helped too. Uh 1938 November 2nd. And my daddy raised the roof because he thought

00:04:21.299 - 00:04:39.989

it was frivolous of my mother to spend that much money on a piano that I couldn't even get up on the suit. But he later years down the, down the road, he, he looked back and saw that it was a good move. Absolutely. So I've been

00:04:40.000 - 00:04:55.750

playing all my life. So mu music in school was particularly important and then tell me what you did after high school, uh, I attended a and T uh State University for, it was a tant college then for two years then, uh I did a little stint

00:04:55.760 - 00:05:10.839

in the army. And after that I came out and somebody, uh, recognized that I was the one who started a swing band in high school and introduced me to the late chap Allen. And, uh, his nickname was Basie because he used to play with Count Basie

00:05:11.510 - 00:05:32.200

and uh he had a combo that was going strong in the area. And I started out being a keyboard player and I want eventually I not being the star performer. Fantastic. And where did you perform geographically everywhere? All up and down in the, in the east

00:05:32.209 - 00:05:55.859

coast area. Were you based here in Durham? And we perform with all the recording artists including the Temptations, the Four Tops, the Tina Turner. We've been on stage with Millie Jackson, um Wilson Pickett, all those major recording artists. We were opened for them. The building not

00:05:55.869 - 00:06:14.670

on highway 55 called Can Fields is a warehouse. It was then the first major nightclub in Durham and all the recording artists came there and we performed, that's how we got to know all of these major recording artist. And we were opening, we would open the

00:06:14.679 - 00:06:36.290

band. Tell me the name of your group again. It was the Jammers, the Chalmers Jammers, jammers, jammer, jammers combo and how many people were in it? Let's see Peter Jona for one. it was about eight, about eight people. Fantastic. Um, that was in the late fifties,

00:06:36.809 - 00:06:57.880

uh, when you were in your twenties, thirties. Yeah. And, and down through the sixties, down through the, uh, through the civil rights movement. So, what was it like? Um, being a black group and touring in terms of civil rights hotels, motels? Wonderful. Because, because of our

00:06:57.890 - 00:07:11.739

music, we were accepted everywhere because of our music. They loved us. And so you could stay in. We didn't do a lot of staying, we didn't do a lot of staying overnight. We did a lot of traveling. Did you stay with friends if you had to

00:07:11.750 - 00:07:30.239

stay overnight or you just did, we did did gigs and came home. If it, if it required traveling uh half the night to get home, that's what we did. We didn't never, we never stayed anywhere overnight and that was because of the segregated practices, partially. But

00:07:30.779 - 00:07:46.019

the, the drivers, we had no problem with having drivers that would drive half the night to get us home. Uh The only problem was they, they had a problem with me on weekends because I'm church orientated. And I've always been and uh we, I told them

00:07:46.029 - 00:08:01.190

if we don't, can't get home by Sunday morning, don't accept the gig because I'm not going because I go to church and have you always been a member of? No, no, I grew up in this very community. I was born right up the street on Cecil

00:08:01.200 - 00:08:17.760

Street which runs down by the law building. My grandmother lived on Martha Street. The next street over my favorite aunt lived on George Street where the two high rise dorms are. Then when we moved, we moved on Fitzgerald Avenue which is across and up the hill

00:08:17.769 - 00:08:33.690

from central, right behind Shirley Caesar uh on. So this is my old community. So everybody in this community basically went to Old Mount Zion, that old church up on the corner. And uh I was raised in that church. But when we moved to the county, if

00:08:33.700 - 00:08:54.409

you remember, uh I wound up going to community Baptist, that's why I was talking about the old building with this knots holes in the floor and all of that um that church and then I eventually left that church and went to Mount Calvary. I've been there

00:08:54.419 - 00:09:15.409

since 1986. Well, let's let's move to um today's activities. Um Tell me how you got involved with the civil rights workers reunion and what role you you've been playing in the luncheons and the services. Well, um I didn't get involved through my activities with the civil

00:09:15.419 - 00:09:40.330

rights movement. I was somewhat um you might call it jealous because when the civil rights rights movement was going on, my brother was in the class with those first city guys at a and t my brother was classmates to them. He wasn't one of them that

00:09:40.340 - 00:09:59.549

went down there, but he was there in the first part of the movement. Um J Frederick Marsh, he's an electronic engineer with Howard University now. Uh and my sister was going to Fayetville State. So they were involved in the civil rights movement as students I had

00:09:59.559 - 00:10:18.400

already come through. So I, I just felt like I was left out because my brother and sister were active in, through their schools. So the only thing that I could do was be supportive through my music. And when they locked up all those students, um Chapel

00:10:18.409 - 00:10:31.799

Hill Boulevard where Howard Johnson used to be and they were locking them up by the thousands. And they were students not only from snorkel and they were from Duke and US C there were just as many white students as they were black who were involved in

00:10:31.809 - 00:10:53.820

the movement. I was there that Sunday when they ran out of police cars and had to solicit buses from the railway company to load up the students. I was there. You witnessed it a lot eggs. And this is ironic. It's so ironic. Lot of Hayes had

00:10:53.830 - 00:11:18.169

not married. Her husband ha she was a student at Durham Business College, Mrs Hayes, her husband's mother and father ran a house that kept the girls like a dormitory house away and she was staying there. So was my first wife and I had gone by that

00:11:18.179 - 00:11:32.859

day because I had a convertible and I wanted to show off and, uh I went by the house that day and was showing off my convertible. But I wanted, I knew that there was a rally going on out and I went by and I picked up

00:11:32.869 - 00:11:51.400

my first wife, who was then a student and we rode out to that rally. And I was amazed when I got there, I was seeing so many people, a mass of people just as many Spectators as there were participants. But it was very moving. The songs

00:11:51.409 - 00:12:08.979

that they were singing was sung with such vigor and vitality was such strength and such um confirmation of what they were doing. They sang with all so much strength and power and just as fast as one would run out of voice to sing, somebody else would

00:12:08.989 - 00:12:23.840

pick it up. That's where I met Vivian mccoy and she was carrying the crowd, carrying the crowd and Vivian is active right now. She's still active. She was urging the kids keep singing, keep on and just as fast as they would lock them up. Some mo

00:12:23.849 - 00:12:38.700

would go sit down in the spots on the hill and that was right across from South Square and that hill was covered. It was like ants with students and they would carry them off by the busload, they filled up the jail and you could hear them

00:12:38.710 - 00:12:55.890

singing a song over my head. I hear music in there all the way down town down to North Carolina Central's campus. You could hear that music traveling over the airwaves, you could hear the music from the courthouse downtown all the way down and you could hear

00:12:55.900 - 00:13:18.929

and their music was so beautiful, you could hear it and the harmony out of this world, the music or something. And it's true about the jailer. Uh huh. Dying. The stress was too much harm. That's a story, isn't it? That is a true story. Right. So,

00:13:19.099 - 00:13:32.640

did you join in and sing or were you? Yes, that's how I did my part because I wasn't a student. I was no longer a student. But I stood out there as much as I could be a part to sing and urge people home because my

00:13:32.650 - 00:13:47.400

brother and sister were doing it and they were in school. I had already gone. But this is my part and I knew a lot of the people who were, I knew a lot of the leaders, all the leaders I knew, I knew of the former Kissick

00:13:47.409 - 00:14:08.770

and I knew now the names escape me. But all the people who were pushing the movement. And so when, so you came to be part of the civil rights reunion workers reunion because of my ability to play because I've played, I've been known all over Durham.

00:14:08.780 - 00:14:24.619

I play and uh yeah, a lot of called me first because we are friends. Like I said, her husband and her and my wife and I got married at the same time. Our Children are the same age. So we go back very far. So, you've been

00:14:24.630 - 00:14:39.099

coming to these reunions for how many years now? About four or five years? Ok. Since about 99 2000. Yeah. And it's poignant with me because I remember those, those terrible things, some of those terrible things that happened and they were involved in, I wasn't involved in

00:14:39.109 - 00:14:56.690

it but I knew about them. And of course, being part of the process, uh part of the celebration, my mind is refreshed every year because I knew about the royal ice cream company. I worked at Cress during the holiday during the time I worked down there

00:14:56.700 - 00:15:12.049

in, in the cafeteria where we were not allowed to eat. I worked there. I used to wonder when I was little. What was the difference between Clyde comes? Some people call white and some people black because my family is uh not m well, you can say

00:15:13.239 - 00:15:31.590

multiracialism. And so I've all my dad is people who are white and some of them whiter than white. And all my mother's people are dark because my great grandmother was gimme from Guinea. So it's true. She said I, I'm a true African. I'm not, I've never

00:15:31.599 - 00:15:51.450

been a slave. She says I'm I'm a guinea woman. So I had the two opposing colors sides in my family. My mother raised us never to call never to use color jokes because we were a product of both. So I had, my mother had no education.

00:15:51.460 - 00:16:12.690

My father had none. Absolutely none. My mother had no education, but she was a self taught businesswoman before she died. And she was a stickler for education. My daddy was a pusher as much as he knew. But she did not allow us to bring home BS

00:16:12.700 - 00:16:35.330

and CS. And, uh, she said she made it important to me. She was important. Made it very emphatic when I was very little. Never hold your head down. When you're talking to anybody, look them straight in the eye, speak clearly and pronounce words correctly. And when

00:16:35.340 - 00:16:49.169

I lived on Cecil Street, that was the end of the city limits. So that's where the bus turned around. I used to get free rides all over town with the bus drivers because they thought I was just an exceptional little colored boy because I spoke with

00:16:49.179 - 00:17:04.500

good diction. I spoke intelligently. I spoke uh without being afraid to holding my head down and I used to get free rides all over town with the buses because the bus driver would turn around there and they would come and just as fast as I get

00:17:04.510 - 00:17:26.579

off one bus, another driver would take me and they made it clear with my mother, everything was gonna be all right. So I never really suffered. I never personally, I never really suffered um abuse but I've seen it, I've seen it. Um I really got upset

00:17:26.589 - 00:17:44.989

the day I was down there doing my job. My first job was at Cress and I was making $20.78 a week and I thought I was rich. And, um, the last thing I had to do was mop the floor before going home. And this elderly, she

00:17:45.000 - 00:17:55.810

had gray hair, this white lady came out and ordered her some ice cream and she was sitting at the booth. This was downstairs because we had to stand up at a booth upstairs and they had a restaurant downstairs and the white people could sit down there.

00:17:55.819 - 00:18:13.670

But we couldn't, we had to stand up at this little counter and buy hot dogs and eat, standing right there right next to the white and colored only water fountains. And I got so angry because this woman asked me, couldn't I stop while she ate. And

00:18:13.680 - 00:18:30.540

it was time for me to go home and she was eating ice cream and my job was to damp mop the floor before leaving. And I was doing my job and it was a sloshing water. It was a damp mop. I was nowhere near her but

00:18:30.550 - 00:18:46.260

she can't, you. And I, you know, I didn't have the i the gumption that I have now because I might have told her off. I might have gotten in trouble. But, uh, I thought it was so narrow minded of her. She's sitting there on my time

00:18:47.040 - 00:19:03.939

eating an ice cream and just because she said so I was not supposed to mop the floor and I was ready to go home. I was doing my job. So that's the only really bad thing that I consider to me. Yeah, that's the only time now.

00:19:04.469 - 00:19:18.599

We never, I didn't, never like the fact that we had to walk in that little screen door at the bus station and that little dank room and they had a big cafeteria right on the front. And you heard me tell about climbing those steps in the

00:19:18.609 - 00:19:40.550

center and the Carolina Theater tell that story again. That's a wonderful story. I performed on that stage. Now, Friday night, two nights ago, I performed on that stage as a performer, as a profound entertainer of the very stage that we was discriminated upon being able to

00:19:40.560 - 00:19:56.469

walk in the door downstairs because we used to have to climb steps and it was high. It seemed like an eternity getting to the top. Blacks could only sit in the balcony at the car, at the center theater. And I found out when I went to

00:19:56.479 - 00:20:07.859

A and T it was the same way up there in the theater. So you had to go up to the balcony and I said, this seems so unreal. It like the white people would want to sit up high and put the black people down. But no,

00:20:07.869 - 00:20:21.989

they had the nice cushion seats downstairs. We had those hard seats up there to sit in. And when I stood on that stage to practice, I looked up and it dawned upon me that's where we used to sit and it, something just went washed over me.

00:20:22.430 - 00:20:46.939

It was very emotional for me to say here I am standing on the stage where we were discriminated upon coming in to watch, enjoy movies and I'm being paid accordingly, being paid accordingly. This generation, your generation is the only generation to really experience the before and

00:20:46.949 - 00:21:04.790

after. That's true. All in one, all in one lifetime. That's true. And so that your experiences and the change of your attitudes from a young man to a mature older adult. Um is one of the reasons why we're doing this, this project and study. What really

00:21:04.800 - 00:21:29.949

bothers me is that the age under me, the thirties and the 40 year old parents don't say the Children coming along, not, don't know anything about civil rights movement. They know about it, but they don't, they have not been given any education on how the struggle

00:21:29.959 - 00:21:47.579

was. Their attitude is hooray for us. We have everything we can do this, we can do that and they don't realize and the parents have not taken time to explain what a struggle. So many people have lost their lives that we might be able to enjoy

00:21:47.589 - 00:22:05.760

the things that we enjoy and they take it so lightly. Uh My daughter was at one of these things, she sang two years ago. Uh, and, uh, and, uh, I said, do you want me to go? No. Um, well, it's, it's boring and it, oh, it

00:22:05.770 - 00:22:22.569

angered me and I had to realize, well, her mother had not said any, said anything to her about it. And so I tried to tell her as much as possible how difficult it was for us as what we call colored back then. We don't like that

00:22:22.579 - 00:22:40.869

word. Now we say black even though all we are every color in the rainbow because my relatives are not black. Um And I don't think any blacks, any blacks have uh total black families just like no whites have total white families because they're mixed up with

00:22:40.880 - 00:22:57.640

French German, Italian everything. You just cannot see it like we can see it because of our pigmentation of our skin. But there's nobody out to them now. Besides there are lots of other differences. I mean, you know, differences that, that people can see differences that they

00:22:57.650 - 00:23:17.540

can't see. And that, that, that's the one thing that bothers me more than anything else. Our young people today don't know and don't care about the struggle right now. Your job and position is to be teaching music in the different daycare centers in Durham. And I

00:23:17.550 - 00:23:35.750

try to advocate as much as I can without uh creating a problem that the Children know when we right now we're going through civil uh civil rights. And my four year olds, my four year olds, they will tell you right now, what did Mr Marsh say

00:23:35.760 - 00:23:52.459

about civil rights? Mr Marsh says civil rights can be described like ice cream and burnt beans. And I came through a scenario of giving one child's ice cream and one child burnt beans. And I'll say now, if one child has burnt beans, the other child has

00:23:52.469 - 00:24:06.540

ice cream, what is it? They said that's not fair. I said, not fair. Fairness has to do with civil rights. How well people are treated and they will repeat that too. They go home and tell their parents, they come back and tell her, I'll say you

00:24:06.550 - 00:24:26.390

have to think of burnt beans and ice cream. And I said, civil rights has to do with people being treated fairly. And uh the other day, I was explaining to them about being bound and it emotionally, I became overcome. They didn't know it, but I had

00:24:26.400 - 00:24:36.030

to get up. I took my belt off and I was at one of the daycare centers and I had one of the teachers to stand up over me and I took my belt on and I put it around my neck and drew it up tight. I

00:24:36.040 - 00:24:48.550

said, how many people have seen that dog seen dogs in the backyard chain to a chain 6 ft long. They said, yes, I said, and that dog has to run around like that all his life in one spot. He eats there. He drinks there and he

00:24:48.560 - 00:25:05.239

PPS there. How would you like to just lay in the same place? You eat the same place? You pee the same place you sleep and eat. N no, nobody would like that. I said, well, that's the way slaves were. I said slaves were treated just like

00:25:05.250 - 00:25:15.900

that. They couldn't get up, they couldn't go to bed unless they were told. And how would you like your brother, your mom and sister, you go home and, and your mom and dad is up on a wagon and they're taken away and they leave you there

00:25:15.910 - 00:25:28.469

with somebody else. I said, that's the way it was. But I laid down on the floor and I took that belt and I put it around my neck and I had the teacher to horse me up and pull me around and do you know, I became

00:25:28.479 - 00:25:44.760

emotionally uh overcome. I didn't let them know it. And I just thought, oh, this had to be terrible. And I had, I don't know what made me create that scenario, but it gave the Children an idea of what it was. Like I said, Doctor King did

00:25:44.770 - 00:26:02.430

not like this. He had a dream that everybody would be treated for equal. And I said, Doctor King was a civil rights leader and that's the song we're gonna learn today. And so all 300 of my Children collectively saying Dr King was a civil rights leader.

00:26:02.439 - 00:26:17.849

He had a dream. And I taught him about the song. Old freedom. That's when I was laying on the ground with my neck tied up in the belt. I said, freedom is the act of being free. I said, and can you imagine having to be? I

00:26:17.859 - 00:26:28.979

said, and so many slaves have said, been down tired. And that's when I laid down, I got on my knees and had to lay the point. And they just said, I said, and the slaves for a minute said, Lord, I want to be free. I want

00:26:28.989 - 00:26:47.599

to be free. And the song says, and before I be a slave and I lay down, I'll be buried in my grave and go home and go home, be be free. I said, now they're not talking about going home. They're talking about they'd rather die than

00:26:47.609 - 00:27:05.670

be. And when they die, they go to heaven and they would be free. I got so upset with, I got so over emotional because even though I was teaching it, got to me this was last Wednesday, but I use it in every class. So they know

00:27:05.680 - 00:27:21.380

what they're singing about. I tell them about the song. We shall not be moved like a tree planted by the water. I said, water tree survive on water and we're gonna be like trees, we will not be moved. We're gonna take our place in society just

00:27:21.390 - 00:27:36.869

because someone opposes it. I said it's not as bad as it used to be, but it used to be terrible. And I explained, I said you have learned you are experiencing good things now. But it's because many people have fought and been beaten and lost their

00:27:36.880 - 00:27:51.910

lives and lost their Children and lost their husbands in their lives because they wanted better things for you. So I'm gonna tell you what your parents don't. I said, if your parents don't like it, tell me, come see me, tell me it comes because I got

00:27:51.920 - 00:28:07.069

a, I got a message for them so that I, again, I'm on the bandwagon for parents telling their Children at least instill it whether they come to the meetings or come to the celebration, at least they need to know these kids standing on the block with

00:28:07.079 - 00:28:25.140

these dreadlocks in their hair and don't even know what the dreadlocks mean. Dreadlocks is a form of religion in the islands. Rastafarians, not one you see on the corner knows what they mean. All they want to do is just twist up the hair and noses in

00:28:25.150 - 00:28:42.020

the ring, rings in the ear is a form of slavery. Slaves used to have to wear rings in their ears and in their noses. And here we put them all over our bodies and our eyelids and, and dropping their pants down below the, it's disgusting to

00:28:42.030 - 00:28:59.030

me. And I thank God and all my sons are grown and I didn't live through that because I'd probably be in trouble when you say that you were um in Durham, when you're in the 19 sixties, when your brother and your sister were in school? Greensboro

00:28:59.449 - 00:29:19.329

and f and are there other brothers and sisters? No, that's, but I have, we have a half sister, older, older. And the, did you think at that point that there would be changes that you've seen subsequently or did you, when, when was it that you knew

00:29:19.339 - 00:29:39.069

that maybe things would change for good? Well, down through the years, things like they said that when the guys picked up, he mentioned about opening newspaper and said segregation has been considered unconstitutional when you saw things like that. And you knew, then it wasn't just overnight,

00:29:39.630 - 00:29:58.040

it would be gradual. But you knew that that was a step in the right direction. So you can't actually see changes they developed unconsciously. They, you look around and all of a sudden said, oh, it has happened. You can't see it happening but it's happening. Uh

00:29:58.250 - 00:30:18.719

When was the first time that you registered to vote? I don't remember. I was grown. I was old enough, but I think the first place I registered was at Stanford War. I think that's the first place I registered in the sixties. Yeah, I'm 65. Now, I

00:30:18.729 - 00:30:40.739

forget easily when your Children were going through the public education in Durham, you were completely in the segregated African American schools, the black schools. Uh No, no. Uh my son, my oldest son, one of the police force, best friend was Nell O Tea the third or

00:30:40.750 - 00:30:57.810

the fourth. Nell O Tea, the fourth. And he did not know uh the schools, the schools integrated in Pearson Town was out there on Bobby Road. See I told you, Pearson Town, the law started right up here on road. You were in segregated schools. But your

00:30:57.819 - 00:31:15.900

Children, Children were, when, when did they graduate from? 0 37 we can work that out. Yeah. But your sons went to Pearson Town. Yeah. My first three Children went to Pearson Town and were integrated in Neer Tier. So it was, but I, my aunt and uncle

00:31:15.910 - 00:31:37.949

the Seneca were servants, not slave servants, were servants in-house servant to the tea family through three generations. Neo tea, Neo tea Junior and Nello tea the third. And they were like family to them because they lived on the premises. And when we went to visit as

00:31:37.959 - 00:31:50.339

Children, I thought that was their house because that's where we went to visit them because they lived in the house. And uh we played with the tear Children and didn't know I didn't know the difference then because I was too young to know that there was

00:31:50.349 - 00:32:04.829

a difference because when we went there, we played with them. I don't Roxburgh road at the old tea house. I remember that we played, they had an apartment up over the garage and uh but we'd play out in the yard with the tear Children. But the

00:32:04.839 - 00:32:19.910

thing that shocked me was my son would always come home talking about his friend Neo and he never called her last name. He'd always say Neo and he took Nello this and Neo that my friend Nello, he and Neo are real close. And then one particular

00:32:19.920 - 00:32:35.099

day he said, daddy uh Miller wants to know if I can come and visit him. So I said, uh I'm sure it should be no problem. But we need to talk to his parents because before you can go visit somebody, I need to find out if

00:32:35.109 - 00:32:50.160

it's all right that you come and visit them and I need to know they need to know that how I feel. So I said, who is this friend? He said, Nello Titi for, I said mellow who? He said, Nello till the fourth? I said, son, do

00:32:50.170 - 00:33:11.680

you know that your great, great aunt and uncle worked for the tears through three generations of their family. I forgot what happened. We never did make contact because they would have known me because they knew that I was Julia and Winston's nephew and I was their

00:33:11.689 - 00:33:23.380

favorite nephew because I'm the one that played the piano was always in church. So they talked about me. But I got to know them when um my aunt and uncle died because they died within a year of each other. They were both nineties in the nineties.

00:33:23.819 - 00:33:39.310

And uh all the tier family came to the funeral, they came and they brought, they gave gifts, money, gifts and many things, all the tears they turned out because that was their family and she wasn't their family. But my Children never had a chance to. So

00:33:39.319 - 00:33:54.079

then my wife, first wife and I divorced and their Children went back to live in Monroe when they went to school down there, Monroe and what in Union County had in integrated. So they've never really suffered. And then my daughter married a white guy much to

00:33:54.089 - 00:34:09.489

my discretion. Not much to my grief and not because he was white, but because the problems I felt that they would face. And I told him. So I told him, I said, Danny, I don't dislike you. Matter of fact, I hold you in high respect because

00:34:09.840 - 00:34:25.060

you have married a black woman with two black Children. Neither one of them. Yours and all of you all down there in that redneck area where you live. I said you are a strong individual and I admire you, but I don't like the situation because of

00:34:25.070 - 00:34:43.350

what might happen to not only my daughter and our Children with you too. When they get married, I can't remember the year, but they stayed married for a while and they eventually broke up. They didn't have a negative break, they just drifted apart. Uh I understand

00:34:43.360 - 00:35:01.849

one of his brothers was half black. I didn't see him but I heard my daughter let me know, uh, they were what you call lower class whites. But then down in Union County you got a lot of that. So, your daughter still lives there? Yeah. But

00:35:01.858 - 00:35:22.739

she just recently married last year and now she's in the church and active. Both her daughters are with my ex-wife down in, in the county and she's living in a city with her new husband. But, um, they never really, I didn't, I did, we didn't have

00:35:22.750 - 00:35:36.959

any problems with the fact that I just didn't like the fact that I didn't like my granddaughters crawling up in his lap because they were not his. And I just, my mind just went into molestation now, like, I think was molestation. Now, maybe that was prejudice

00:35:36.969 - 00:35:56.260

of me because you got black prejudices too. But, uh, I just had a prejudice about that and like I, like I said, I told him I admire him but they eventually broke up. But you could see the difference between the individual and the prejudices that society

00:35:56.270 - 00:36:13.090

had. Yeah, about, about a, a biracial marriage. Yes. And that's being honest. Yeah, that's being honest. So they could have made a movie about your family as well. They could have my youngest, my youngest son who used to give him a hard time. He eventually married

00:36:13.100 - 00:36:31.679

a white girl and she has a biracial child, which is not his. But, uh, he's the only father that she knows. And that was down there too. Well, you must be a role model to um to folks in your family who's a role model to you.

00:36:35.409 - 00:36:52.659

Awesome. All I can really say my mother and father were role models to me because they had such a hard time. I have then tell the stories of the terrible times they had growing up. And they, I told my brother says, I said, you know, we

00:36:52.669 - 00:37:13.610

are, we are a dysfunctional family and we laugh about it because we all became what our parents wanted us to be. And we became educated, we became, what's the word? Uh I guess you became independent in a sense. We became my dad. I would say be

00:37:13.620 - 00:37:44.209

somebody, we're not stuck up, but we became somebody uh to be reckoned with as an individual. You're proud of yourself. Uh Yes, I am. I am. I'm the product of a totally illiterate father and 1/4 grade educated mother who from sun up to sundown pedal that

00:37:44.219 - 00:38:01.600

sewing machine determined that we would go to high school and college determined that we would be able to stand flat footed and stand on our own feet and not have to beg, determined to have some pride in ourselves and our heritage because of my daddy who

00:38:01.729 - 00:38:22.120

had no education at all. He, he couldn't even write his name. No, he could, he could only write his name and he wrote that with a little old Oren MA RC. That's all he could do. Yes. And he, he could count, he could do anything with

00:38:22.129 - 00:38:38.879

his hands. Anything he saw done, he could do brick making. He could do plumbing, he could do electrical work. He could do building, he could do cement and finishing. He was a gardener. He could do anything he saw anybody do but he had no education. He

00:38:38.889 - 00:39:00.000

had education in life. He said he called it mother wit And that's the will of the mother that the child survived. His, my mother was the oldest of the girls at home. She had one brother and the brother was favored by my grandmother. So he was

00:39:00.010 - 00:39:21.209

free to do what he wanted to do. And my mother was pulled out of school and treated like a boy to help raise her sisters because my grandmother was a migrant worker lander. She had to come out of school in fourth grade. Your mother did and

00:39:21.219 - 00:39:42.000

she cut wood, she plowed, she did the work that my uncle should have done. But she worked many years in the homes of white people. And she would see like kids going to school. They, she went to the Ohio with her family and she, they live

00:39:42.010 - 00:39:57.889

by the campus and she see boys carrying the books of the girls on the campus. And I remember her saying that so many times and she said my Children are gonna go to college if it's my last, if it takes my last dying day and all

00:39:57.899 - 00:40:18.060

3d, I got my mother pump that saw machine in the morning. We'd hear it humming at night. We go to bed. We are home, daddy would work sun up to sun down. We hardly ever saw him because when he came in the evening, he'd go straight

00:40:18.070 - 00:40:30.409

to the fields and as soon as the sun go down, he would be in the bed, he was very country. And when the sun came up in the morning, he'd be gone. So we never saw him except when he come in and he would say, hey,

00:40:30.419 - 00:40:47.260

daddy, he'd have to pat us on the head and that was it. So he worked the fields. When you moved to the county, he worked the shipyards during the war. And did he work um, a regular job jobs in Durham after the war. He worked in

00:40:47.270 - 00:41:06.209

the tobacco factories and he worked at the cement furnishing companies and, and stuff like that. But my mother always sewed on it. My mother made the guy for Terry San's wife for the inauguration that she was that good. That is pretty good. That's pretty good. She

00:41:06.360 - 00:41:21.449

said she did a lot of work for, was it Ruth Gordon downtown? Used to be Ruth, I think when they were Ruth Gordon, she had a shop, she did a lot of work for her. So my mother would be considered a professional seamstress. She was in

00:41:21.459 - 00:41:41.760

the aura of a professional seamstress. She was, she was good. She could make, she made shoes, she made hats. She, she was very gifted with her hats and crafts and she was a woman. She was, oh, she didn't wear that many hats herself, but she made

00:41:41.770 - 00:42:01.020

hats for other people. She with, without a lot busy doing things for other folks. Your brother and your sister are they still living? And what have they done with their lives? My brother uh became an electronic engineer. He's, he's still on the Stafford House University and

00:42:01.030 - 00:42:20.209

he does uh government projects. My sister is a retired uh civil magistrate. Uh She, when she graduated, she taught school for a short time. Then she worked at North Carolina Mutual and then she eventually, when she got married, I don't remember when she got into the,

00:42:21.110 - 00:42:36.679

she became a court clerk and from court clerk, she went to magistrate and from magistrate to civil magistrate. Now she's retired and she lives in Richmond, Virginia. So you, when you have a family reunion, it must be a lot of stories that you can tell a

00:42:36.689 - 00:42:54.629

lot of changes that have happened between your parents and your Children. I'm saddened, saddened by the fact that we are geographically separated and we don't get together that often. And my mother just died the year before last. So it has been very spaced out since then

00:42:54.639 - 00:43:12.189

when mother was here and daddy was here. See, everything revolved around mother's day Father's Day Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving. Everybody be home. But now, where did your parents live in these later years? Right out there by Pearson House, Street Cross over Baria Baptist Church. And so that

00:43:12.199 - 00:43:30.679

would be the family gathering area that would have been, it's no longer that they pass away. My father and my mother died with Alzheimer's. I know. So we don't get together, you know. And that's sad. We had my brother and sister. I grew up as friends.

00:43:31.620 - 00:43:48.780

We were not just brothers and sisters, we were friends. We were buddies. So you helped each other out. Well, we, we had each other's back. We got in trouble together. Um, when I said, I mean, mischief, um, everything we did together, we were very close and

00:43:48.790 - 00:44:06.540

now we're so distant, it hurts. So you, when you come to the reunion, you play music at the lunch the way I heard you today, you invite folks like be and Mason to come up there. Yeah, because I got Bill and Bueller to come the first

00:44:06.550 - 00:44:21.060

half. Uh Well, Bill was coming but I got her to start performing because I knew Bill could say and she used to sing in the choir up the street at Mount Zion. When I was playing there. I played that 30 years. You played at Mount Zion?

00:44:21.070 - 00:44:42.540

30 years as the organist. Yeah. Great, great. So, you've, you've been in a lot of churches in general? Not a lot, a lot a lot. And so do you plan what you're gonna, gonna play? No, I'm simply strictly spontaneous. That's great today. I didn't plan what

00:44:42.550 - 00:44:56.909

I was gonna do. You just sat down at the piano and provided music while everybody was eating. That's the best way to do. Now, if you know, you gotta go play for people, then it's good to have a plan to go by. But like in there,

00:44:57.229 - 00:45:11.469

I didn't plan that. So you were also playing at the service as the people were coming in before the service. I don't never sit down and plan what I wanna do. That was great. And I didn't plan the solos either. So it was a series of

00:45:11.479 - 00:45:38.560

church music, gospel music, music. That was just part of your community, your soul, right? Um Were there any organizations besides the churches that were involved in civil rights activities that you were involved with that? I was involved with? None. The churches in Durham, they organized parades

00:45:38.570 - 00:45:55.429

protests, that kind of thing. The churches didn't organize them but they partook of them. So the ho the Howard Johnsons is the, is the march and the picketing that you remember the most? I remember that Howard Johnson as it is being in. That was, that was

00:45:55.439 - 00:46:15.100

like unbelievable. That was like, I'm watching a movie. This can't be, I remember the, the rallies they had at the post office and in front of the post there and post office, there'd be so, so many people out there. Um, I heard about all the rallies

00:46:15.110 - 00:46:27.149

that the students would be taken from Central. But that, that would be a time when I had to be at work. I wanted to be part of it and, uh, I wanted so much to go to the march on Washington when, uh, King spoke, but I

00:46:27.159 - 00:46:43.939

couldn't afford to be away from work and work at that time was, I'm trying to remember where was I worked in there. Because in addition to being a musician, you've also had jobs. Oh, God, I've had all kinds of carpentry and I've had jobs. I learned

00:46:43.949 - 00:46:58.969

brick major in the army. I worked in uh and construction jobs. Then I worked in jobs where there were craft because I've always been good at crafts. I've done a lot of craft work. I worked in picture frame shops. I worked in upholstery shops. I worked

00:46:58.979 - 00:47:16.000

in, um, go and wood craft. I worked as a plumber, uh uh assistant and I did that because I just wanted to have the knowledge because I think I thought plumbing was the filthiest job that you could have. Uh, and it was an experience because there

00:47:16.010 - 00:47:30.959

had been some cold days under the house and on top of the house and then we worked in plumbing company. We know we were working with plumbing company. But I wanted the experience. We wanted to make sure that the plumbing in your house worked well. Yeah,

00:47:30.969 - 00:47:47.179

that too. And it taught me a lot of things to do on my own as a result of it. Um, I learned upholster, my mother and my brother and I ran upholster shop for years together. My mother taught us what she learned, working at Durham upholstery.

00:47:47.409 - 00:48:00.689

And I can't think of a place downtown. Was it Durham Drapery? No, I worked at Durham Drapery for a long time too. Did you tell me about Durham Drapery? I love my work at Durham Drapery. The only thing I dislike about that they would not tell

00:48:00.699 - 00:48:15.129

you when you were gonna do overtime and I had activities, other activities as, as far as income that I had to do. And I eventually left there. But I loved it because when I worked the relationship with the employees at D was like a family. Did

00:48:15.139 - 00:48:32.610

you know Mary Holman? Yes. Tell me about you and Mary Holman and, and others integrating Durham Drapery? Well, um, when I got there it was already integrated. She says she was the first black to work there. Oh, really? Ok. That was before me because, uh, when

00:48:32.620 - 00:48:49.830

I got there it was just like everybody was a big family, right? But the supervisors were still different. Supervisors were all white. So they were, I was, I remember they had one black girl in the office and the only one that I see everybody looked at

00:48:49.840 - 00:49:06.139

and said she's just a token she just, she's got to satisfy the media. White people put her there. So they would have her in a flat from downtown. So, you were probably working there in the seventies, eighties. I can tell you how I can tell you

00:49:06.149 - 00:49:28.270

exactly. My youngest son is 31 and he was born when I was working there. So that would be in the seventies. Um, what do you remember about the, um, the boycott of the, of the white businesses? Then we built the, um, the black, the Howard Clement.

00:49:28.949 - 00:49:52.649

I, um, Howard Clinton's wife and I are classmates and I knew his mother, I knew his parents and I knew his in-laws. Um, I called it the Black, um, just a minute. Oh, you know, I remember hearing about it but I wasn't active in it. Um,

00:49:52.790 - 00:50:17.909

that was in 69 when they were boycotting white businesses. I was, my participation was in providing music during my work. My participation in was whatever they had big rallies and gatherings and music and choirs were needed. That's where I came in. So you would help decide

00:50:17.919 - 00:50:30.810

the songs I didn't have. Yeah. Well, we automatically knew what the songs would be because there would be protests. And so then you would, you stand in front of the, of the singers or many times? And then most of the time I played, give the direction.

00:50:31.280 - 00:50:47.899

So, if you were indoors, you had a piano, if you were out, what did you play? Well, we blacks, there's a tendency to know how to sing without a cappella. So it was not a job for me. You saw how got those kids, that choir to

00:50:47.909 - 00:51:00.290

sing behind? I had never played for that choir. Some of those people, I, most of the people I never knew, I just told them sing and they did it and it looked like we planned it, but it wasn't. So they knew that you had the skills

00:51:00.300 - 00:51:14.419

and the capabilities to, to do that and you were interested in what was going on. Oh, yes. That is terrific. How do you think that Durham has changed since the time when you were growing up? What's the biggest change that you find that you want your

00:51:14.429 - 00:51:35.060

daughter to know, uh, that things are better for, for her as a black person today than it was when I was a child. That's the biggest changes. Things are much easier, much different. She has, that does not have to deal with overt discrimination. That is the

00:51:35.070 - 00:51:50.459

thing that I find the most, that is most outstanding Children today don't have to deal with over. We know that sometimes it still goes on. We know about the stereotyping with by the police. We know about stup type of bad jobs. We know that it still

00:51:50.469 - 00:52:15.310

goes on but it's not overt but they're not rules that she has to live by that you had to live with that. Oh. No, absolutely not. My cousin's, uh, aunt, Attorney Marsh, she's as white as you liked her. His mother's sister and his mother is very

00:52:15.320 - 00:52:31.800

light. But she has, even though she's a beautiful woman, she has, um, you know, that she's a light skinned negro but her sister has all caucasian features and that was an, em, it wasn't embarrassing. It's very funny how she got on the bus one morning and,

00:52:31.820 - 00:52:48.399

uh, she started to the back of the driver said, uh, no, ma'am. You stay up here and she put something on his plate. She hates it. No, I'm not sure. But, um, he said you come up here and stay up here with, sit up here with

00:52:48.409 - 00:53:07.830

your kind and she said if it wasn't for people like your kind, mixing with people of my kind, it would be no kind of my kind. Well, you, you've given us a very good, uh, understanding of the way in which, um, the color of your skin

00:53:08.050 - 00:53:24.540

just doesn't indicate the, the beauty of your soul. And that's the way that we are hoping that the world for your daughter should be. It should be and the, and the rest of the world would be. We had, we know that the Marans did not like

00:53:24.550 - 00:53:42.899

the Jews in the Bible. What the Samaritan Jews look alike to me took from what I gathered, looked, looked alike. But there was prejudices way back then. So, prejudice has gone on since the beginning of time. And I suppose there will always be some form of

00:53:42.909 - 00:53:59.209

prejudice, but we don't, we do not like that. We do not have to let it bog us down. Uh, prejudices can be crossed over. There are barriers that can be broken. There can be crossovers uh through Christ who strengthens us through our provider and through our

00:53:59.219 - 00:54:23.479

maker because he made all of us. He didn't make us in pie slices. He made us all. And I think it would be so boring. If we all were the same, it would be utterly boring. I'm a black person who does not like Chitlins. I don't

00:54:23.489 - 00:54:44.969

like baseball and I like watermelon. I love opera. I like ballet. I like ice skating and I eat quiche that's on black. Yeah, there aren't stereotypes that that. And when I tell people that and people look at me strange. I said none of us are alike.

00:54:45.979 - 00:55:04.870

You're a great role model to the 3234 and five year olds that you teach every day and tell me something. Um, do you think that, that the black history should be taught only in February or all month? No, I think it should be taught. I think

00:55:04.879 - 00:55:19.870

it should be taught year round along with all the rest of the histories because there is so much that black Children don't know and has been suppressed by whites because they did not want back then. They did not want Children to know that blacks were just

00:55:19.879 - 00:55:38.000

as intelligent, just as creative, just as spontaneous, just as strong as the whites. They wanted us to look uh illiterate. They wanted to look like dumb imbeciles. When we know that education was going on in Timbuktu. When white people still in caves, we know that uh

00:55:38.040 - 00:55:52.270

uh it has been, I don't know about proven, but it's been made a fact stated a fact that, that it's believed that The Garden of Eden was in Africa after all, where all those different animals come from. All those animals that ought to be something to

00:55:52.280 - 00:56:15.340

tell you something. Where did you learn so much about the history of, um, of the black people? I read, I love to read, I love to read and it's as much of a fiction as it is. The Man Dingo series tells you a lot and there

00:56:15.350 - 00:56:29.649

were nine or 10 books most kids said. Have you ever heard of Mandi? Oh, I heard of that. I saw that movie. That was a good movie, but they should read the book and then should come along after that and read Drum and then read Man

00:56:29.840 - 00:56:51.760

Bingo Master and Flight to Falcon Hurst and Air the Falcon Hurst and Falcon Hurst fan said it all those books. They are very instructional, but nobody looks at it as just a good book to read and it's fiction, but fiction is based on truth and there's

00:56:51.770 - 00:57:12.320

so much to be learned in that book should be put in the children's library and it's got some, some heavy stuff in it, some sorted material and some things that you would not necessarily want Children, Children to read. But the Manding series is really, really educational

00:57:12.979 - 00:57:26.909

as far as slavery is concerned. It is the most, I think that's one of the most educated books that is great to know from an educator's mouth. It is what your recommendation is and what's out there. And they don't write them in the car on ST

00:57:27.189 - 00:57:48.310

Lance Horner and Carlo ST Kono and uh Carly started and Lance Horner and Ashley Carter were those authors and they wrote some dynamite stuff. I mean, it was because it was like the real deal. They didn't cover up anything and I often wonder, Ashley Carter and

00:57:48.320 - 00:58:06.840

Lyle Carlstadt and Lance Honer were white. Uh And you can tell the one that Llk Onstad was in Europe has a European derivative, but they didn't cut any corners. They tried to tell the truth. They wrote it like it was God, that was just deep and

00:58:06.850 - 00:58:20.889

the average black person should read those books, but you can't even find their books in a while. That's an, that's an interesting recommendation they need to be found and restored because those books open up your eyes to a whole lot. We didn't, I didn't know that

00:58:20.899 - 00:58:41.820

that there were two color codes. You always hear about a child of a black and a white person is a mulatto, the child of a mulatto and a white person is a quadroon, the child of a white person and a quadroon is an Octa room. And

00:58:41.830 - 00:59:07.290

it goes that's one scale but it never mentions about the child of a black person and a mother being a TS Saran and further down a Mara Marani, a T Ron and a marine and a Griff. I can't remember exactly which degree, but it tells so

00:59:07.300 - 00:59:28.110

much degree of black blood, mixed with mixed, so many degrees of white blood mixed with mixed. And how in New Orleans, especially, uh the color cast and in Africa, they deal with different, different racial mixes, even in Africa in many different ways. This has been fascinating.

00:59:28.120 - 00:59:44.889

We're coming up to one hour so I am going to suggest that we stop this conversation before they kill me to death. I should have tried their lunches two hours ago. Oh, I'm sorry, but I, I felt this is necessary. Thank you very much. We will

00:59:44.899 - 00:59:56.379

get in touch with you and thank you for the work that you do with Children every day. Oh, I love it. I get tired. I get tired sometimes and I don't want to go. But when I walk in the morning and as soon as I walk

00:59:56.389 - 01:00:16.949

up in the morning, walk to the door, the face is lighter and said, good morning Mr Mars and there goes your whole tiredness out the window. That's absolutely true. Well, thank you so much. Let me see. I hope I have a board. You not at all.

01:00:16.959 - 01:00:35.669

Let me see. I'm just gonna, what I need you to do is to sign this by. I would turn it off. Oh, that's.