00:03:47.990 - 00:07:04.770

Jim Wise: As I gather that the first, the earliest mention that I found of applying urban renewal into the Hayti district is a 1957 document called um, Outlook (?) for Durham. Is this… Wense Grabarek: Yes. I remember that yes. Jim Wise: Is that, in your memory, is that where it started or is there something (inaudible) to talk about? Wense Grabarek: No, I think that’s probably the originating point on that yes. ’57 and um, urban renewal was coming about. All the communities across the country were looking at their downtown the rundown areas and Durham fell into that category of course. And um, that was in 1957 and then it came up the study, the Planning Department came up with its conclusion really in ’62, 1962. And so in October of ’62 there was a bond election and um, I need to preface this a little by the history of the blighted areas in Durham. The Planning Department broke the community down into 20 different areas across the city and it had various criterias to what would qualify and they were items like um, um, the 18 characteristics of low property values, aging housing stock, deterioration, dilapidation, lack of adequate plumbing facilities, overcrowding and so on. And of those 20 sections in the City, um, the worst by far were the two areas that encompassed the Hayti/Elizabeth Street area. They were absolutely blighted. They had no business, economic future to them whatsoever. I visited down there many times myself and it was just untenable property to be honest about it. And the summary substance of it was everybody agreed. The people who agreed most were the people that lived in the area. These are the four black precincts, Whitted, Pearson, Burton and Hillside. And um, well they looked at their own community and urban renewal funds being available on a Federal level, they wanted very much to get in on this program to bring the urban renewal project into their area. And they were the ones that wanted it on the ballot, primarily wanted it on the ballot and it was put on the ballot. And the results of the October ’62 election – very revealing, because the…we would not have had urban renewal or the Expressway without the vote for the Bond vote (?), the strong vote of the four black precincts. They needed it and they wanted it and they voted very strongly in its behalf. And that is the only reason that it passed, and that is the only reason we had any urban renewal in the Hayti/Elizabeth Street area whatsoever. 92% of the black vote went for urban renewal and um, let me catch this exact…61% of the white community was against it. So it just gives you the total picture, that the only reason we have urban renewal at all in Durham is because of the will and strong support that the black community gave it and wanted it and it prevailed. So the project was put in place. And we should mention at the same time, there were four items incidentally that made up the urban renewal project: water, sewer, streets and the underpass. There were four different items that made it up and they like I say, they barely passed, even with the strong vote. It passed with a total of the four items by 706 votes – the full project. So you can see without the black support and vote Durham would not have any urban renewal. Now consistent with that on the Bond issue of ’62, there was an item for the Expressway on the same ballot and the results were exactly the same. 91% of black precincts, of the vote in the black precincts wanted the Expressway – wanted the Expressway. 59% voted against it of the white side. So here again we’re talking about two projects that came into being strictly and solely because of the black vote and the black desire to have both of these programs instituted. Which they were. Now the urban renewal, we’ve had comment since of course and just I would say um, I don’t want to use words too strong but I think saying unfair to say that the ur…the Expressway was foisted upon the black community of Hayti, which was as, if one were to believe what one reads was thriving and vibrant at the time is totally absent of historical fact. We have it because our black constituents wanted it and that’s fine and they got it. And the Expressway that followed, we had voice on the City Council that could have spoken. These matters are not just brought up and done overnight. You have public hearings. The State Highway Commission was instructed by the City only that we needed east/west traffic facilitation. We couldn’t get our people across town from East Durham to Duke Hospital and Duke University and the VA Hospital and so on. That was a problem in 1957. That’s the reason we had that configuration of the streets that we got a planner in to see how to do it. And so he one wayed it. And the only reason we went one way on Main Street was to get the traffic from east to west. So at that time it was a good situation. But to avoid that and to correct it your government should look at ways to alleviate it and correct it, and that’s what we did. We told the State Highway Commission we need an east/west expressway, thoroughfare of some kind to ease the traffic. And they were the ones who made the decisions. The only qualification as I recall it, that the City had was that the Expressway would fall somewhere within an area that would be one mile south of the Railroad tracks as I recall it. That was the only provision that was made by the, the governing agency at that time. So then the State Highway Department goes about its affairs and comes up with different alternates and finally you come up with a corridor and it just fell that where the urban renewal was, was one of the routes that they had chosen earlier as a proposed path. Then they nailed it down as a corridor – that this is the best way and then in April of ’63 you have a tremendous public hearing and the public reaction is well received. There’s not opposition. Everybody had full knowledge, that’s the only…if I had anything to do with (inaudible) that was it. The people were going to have their voice and I was going to hear them. And we would act accordingly as to how best serve this City. So we had the public hearing, so everything went along…fine. There was no voice…I think the words in the public reports that they gave me were “well received,” “well received,” “well received.” So, what we’re saying is that we’ve got those two projects of urban renewal and the Expressway which somehow historically has become, have become confused in the public’s mind. There has been no historical recording of facts and I’m telling you today as best as I can remember them and I think I can vouch for just about everything I say because it’s in print, somewhere, official print, that is minutes or the record of the State Highway Department and so on. So we have urban renewal in Durham – Hayti/Elizabeth Street area, and the Expressway because of the wishes, desires and successful conclusions being brought to both items.

00:09:50.250 - 00:10:44.850

Jim Wise: As far as the Expressway is concerned, what role did the Research Triangle Park play in it? Wense Grabarek: Well, the Research Triangle Park had no voice directly at that time. I was very much involved in this because I was…the Expressway Pass was a blessing as far as I was concerned for the City of Durham. I was delighted, when the bond issue passed and we’re going to have an Expressway. I worked directly, I knew Lauch Faircloth, he was the Secretary of Transportation and I got with him and I said, we can’t push this hard enough or fast enough as far as I’m concerned and there’s quite a story as to how we got the money for urban renewal and deals with my connections in Washington but that’s perhaps off the subject here. Some other time. That’s right as to how we got the money, because it passed in ’62 and I came in in ’63 and nothing had been done. Nothing. So I had… Jim Wise: I could see by reading the newspaper it looked like they were (cross talk here, can’t really make out Jim’s question.) Wense Grabark: There were a number of items that I wanted to see what the carry over items were and so I got right with it and urban renewal was one of them. So um, now, I got Lauch Faircloth and the idea was to rush it as fast as we can and I have to say this, the State was very cooperative with me. And what happened was that they ah, our first request was from Alston Avenue to Chapel Hill (inaudible). And I personally got myself involved on buying up some of those properties. It isn’t easy to deal with people like Claude May who had just built a beautiful building on Chapel Hill Street, a new beautiful. He was in the interior decorating business and painting and so on. It was beautiful. And I went to him personally, he was the last one I had to deal with. And we had to discuss it as to what’s best for Claude May and what’s best for the City of Durham and, and he deserves credit for this. He said, well, it’s fine. So we got the first leg from um, Alston Avenue to Chapel Hill Street. And I think that happened in ’65 and finally completed in about almost into ’70 I think is when it was completed. But um, working with Lauch Faircloth, they meet, they meet on a certain Tuesday of each month. He would have Billy Rose, the State Highway top engineer call me personally and tell me exactly what the status was, as to what the timetable was, what the funding table would be and um, what we could do about extending it because that leg, obviously that leg, by itself was very helpful for the Main Street traffic problem that we had but didn’t begin or end anywhere of significance at the time. So when the Park came in and Durham provided the water for the Park as you well know in ’59 and that area when we got started and I was very anxious to give Durham a leg into the Park. And that’s what followed. Got with Lauch Faircloth after the Alston Ave, Chapel Hill St. leg was underway. I think this happened in 1968. They awarded the contract, the State did for the leg into the Park, that was beautiful as far as I was concerned because this is what we needed. Here’s economic growth and we’ve got to reach it. So that was the second leg and after that all the legs were after I retired from office, they went westerly and they had a little more difficulty with property acquisitions and so on. But that story of the leg to the Park came right after we got the first leg in – Alston to Chapel Hill, worked with the State – let’s help us out here, let’s get Durham connected into the Park, cause it was growing. I knew, I was interviewing the IBM people and the ChemStran people and Burroughs Wellcome…I talked to all of them…they interviewed me about the City and what our attitudes were and so on. So I knew this connection is just terrific for, for our community if you will. And I worked with Lauch Faircloth, fortunately he was in total agreement and he helped us, he deserves credit to and Billy Rose the engineer to help get that contract awarded, and that’s how it was completed, (inaudible) and tied Durham into the Park. It was quite a, quite a plus for this community to do that.

00:14:11.270 - 00:15:04.110

Jim Wise: I can well remember when the Freeway opened…(cross talk) Wense Grabarek: That was big. Jim Wise: The earliest I have found anyone making objections not to the Expressway but to the urban renewal comes along in ’60, late ’68, ’69 and it seems in conjunction with, at least in time conjunction with some other Civil Rights activities, involving Ben Ruffin and Howard Fuller. And I believe Howard Clement was also involved in all of this. There seem to be some overlap in personalities between the Black Solidarity Committee for Community… Wense Grabarek: They came in in ’68.

00:15:05.430 - 00:15:35.950

Jim Wise: Right. And some of the people involved with that were also making appearances at Redevelopment Commission meetings and voicing some oppositional expressions and discontentment with the plan, with the urban renewal plan. Wense Grabarek: Were they aware of its inception? Jim Wise: I do not know. Wense Grabarek: Well that’s the good question as to where were they in 1962 when the vote was taken? Where were they in 1963 when the public hearing was heard? Where was their voice on the Council during anytime that anyone wants to mention? There is no exception or objection of record. And I was there. I’m in the chair. I don’t remember a single voice at that time. Now you’re mentioning 1968, yes, we had some outside visitors into town, like Mr. Fuller and they gave us some very difficult times, but I think we coped with them in a very progressive way and they didn’t hinder anything that I did through they year ’71. Certainly they were a presence. They were, to me an obstruction but they didn’t retard anything the city was doing in various other levels, we were growing. We were rezoning, South Square came into being during my tenure. Hope Valley was annexed during my tenure. Croasdale was annexed and rezoned and broken down into thirds for acquisition purposes so they would join us. That’s how we acquired that. We got Liggett Myers to move from New York to Durham, their headquarters. And as to providing the water for the Park, you helped all. Our efforts were directed to how do we get tenants into the Park now. I talked with Governor Hodges about this. And people like IBM would come in for example and send four consultants and they would say, “Mr. Mayor, we’d like to talk to you for an hour or so. We can’t identify our client, we can’t identify ourselves. Would you give us some time under those conditions? We’re a 500 company.” Yes sir, and we met. And they would ask me, one of the first gentlemen asked me, “We want your opinion of each Council Member. You’re the Mayor. You’ve got twelve Council Members, and the first one on my list is Paul Alford,” he said, alphabetically. “What do you think of Mr. Paul Alford?” That’s a fact. And went down the line. The next gentleman asked me about religion. The next about education or schools were very important to ‘em. And then cultural activities. And I sat there for hours answering these gentleman’s questions. Fortunately IBM is in the Park. Burroughs Wellcome was the same way. George Hitchens was the voice I spoke to out there. He was a fine man and he fell in love with this area by the way. But we talked many, many times and um, they came to the Park too. And I asked him too by the way, this is a little aside, I said, “George, of all the people who came down here to Burroughs, you’re the only one who lives in Durham.” And he says, “You’re right.” He said, “I’ve looked at the schools and the Durham High School, he had a son, is by far the best in this area.” That’s what he said. I think he said you’re the only school that teaches Russian. He threw…that’s a fact. But anyway, George and then Chemstrand, Mr. Chik Cray (?) was the voice of Chemstrand, and we spent many, many hours. He’s asking me questions and he’s at the right place, the Mayor’s office. I should have a feel for the community and um, give him and honest, candid opinion of and answers to his questions. And they came to the Park, and this was over and over. We would fly to Murfeesboro, Elizabethtown in Tennessee for Bonit (?) It was a terrible flight, we almost lost our lives coming back because they waved us off at Raleigh Durham Airport, the ceiling was below 200 feet. And Eller Tier (?) was good enough to let us have a plane. They flew us to Wilmington, and we were the last plane they allowed to land. It was stormy, scary. But that’s all part of the turf that you work with, when you’re in the South. But they came to the Park. So we had tremendous success. I think everyone at that time, one later on, Mark Merrietic (?) considered the Park and we wound up second and um, I asked the gentleman why that was. I’d rather not say why he said. But anyway, the Mayor’s office, I don’t know how it is today, but in those days with the Park developing, they spent a lot of time in my office. As a matter of fact, I was the first Mayor of Durham to have an office at City Hall. That’s a fact. You never had an office in City Hall, that school building that became the Art’s Council. And I had all these people from IBM, they were coming in and wanting an appointment with the Governor’s office. You know, your business office is only so large, you can’t put twenty people in there, so I got with Harding Hughes over there at City Hall and walked in and right on the left they had a storage room. They had old desks and chairs and equipment just stacked up. I said Harding, that’s my office. And he cleared it out and that became the office and that’s where a lot of these meetings, almost every day there for a while took place on the Park. Somebody wanted to come and discuss the City and so we had a nice meeting place and that worked out just fine.

00:21:01.070 - 00:27:54.370

Jim Wise: Well tell me about the financial difficulties you ran into. You mentioned you had to intervene in Washington. Wense Grabarek: Oh, when I was elected I looked at these carry over items and was wondering why we’re not doing more. Why weren’t we using the Bond funds that we had? And one of them was urban renewal and so I met the Redevelopment Commission/Urban Renewal Commissioner at that time, Ben Perry. I think Robinson Everett was the Chairman and said, “No, we haven’t gotten the money and no one has said anything about getting it.” So this is, very coincidentally, because I had met Vice President Humphrey when he came here to dedicate the building and he was also out here to dedicate the Bennett Place, which I was treasurer to raise the money for that, by the way. That’s another story, by the way of how difficult it was to raise the money and put it into play. But I called him. He’d been the Mayor of Minneapolis. I said, “Mr. Vice President, we passed this Bond issue here in ’62, it’s a year old at least here now, and your good people aren’t giving us any funds. And so he explained the so called Liaison System that they have in Washington, DC. That’s where you, you file your complaint or question and it takes three days up there, there’s a legislator that looks at it and then gives you an answer. Well, um, I filed it with the Senator Irvin and Senator Jordan were in office then and Hollis Smith was the administrative assistant, who was a Durham man, with Senator Jordan at the time. He worked with WDNC. And so I called him, told him we don’t have the money. And so said put in the process, which we did. Three days later Hollis Smith calls me and says that Wense, we can’t get the money. I said I knew that, that’s why I (inaudible) it. He said the reason is that Senator Jordan and Senator Irvin will not vote for Mr. Weaver, who is Mr. Johnson’s appointment to the Cabinet. And until they change they mind you’re not going to get any money. I said thank you Holl, and I picked up the phone and called the Vice President. And um, I told him, “Mr. Vice President, the answer they gave me is that unless our Congressional Delegation, Senatorial Delegation votes for Mr. Weaver; we’re not going to get any funds. And I appreciate that and I appreciate your help, but I intend to be on the television station tomorrow evening to tell my community why it is we don’t have these funds.” And he said, “Don’t do that.” And I said, “let me thank you,” and so on. The next morning at 8 o’clock, my phone rings with a call from the White House. Well, I was just about ready to leave, I had an appointment in Raleigh at that time, but it was 8 o’clock in the morning. He said the funds are being released. You’ll have a wire to confirm this within moments. And that happened, and that’s how the funds were released. Now, this is coincidental, but Mr. Humphrey and I got along just great. I had several meetings with him to the point and this is very coincidental, he gave me cufflinks, cufflinks and this tie clip and that’s presented to me by Vice President, this is strictly coincidental because I had no idea what would come up here. Yeah, that’s a fact. (laughter) So, we got along just great after that and there were other items on our poverty programs. I spent a lot of time with the Vice President and we got a lot of things straightened up. He gave, he arranged appointments with me with Sargent Shriver, the head of the Peace Corps and the Poverty Programs. I spent hours up there with him and trying to use the money more beneficially for my community. When I went to him one time, I told him, “Mr. Vice President, you’ve given Durham $33 million. That’s what they did, to Operation Breakthrough and I said, “And no one is happy.” I said, “That’s a pretty good trick, when you can give someone $33 million and make everyone unhappy.” So he put me in touch with Sargent Shriver and we hammered a few things out. My basic plan and this may not be exactly what you had in mind, but was to establish kind of a Marshall Plan for the City. If we could rebuild Europe after World War II and give them all kinds of funding, money, fund without any retribution or repay of any kind, my suggestion to him was do that for the cities and hopefully get some repay scheduling it into the same project. So that when we recover, we revitalize, the economy is upgraded, yes we will repay X% of what you advanced us up front to do that. And um, he was very complimentary. Don’t want to be immodest but he said, “You’re the best so and do Mayor ever been in this office.” He said, “I’m going to take your idea and run with them like a thief.” That’s what he really said. Incidentally, I think at one of these meetings, Mr. Galifinakis was there. Our Congressman was in the office at the same time, so we had a great relationship and he was extremely helpful to me and obviously to Durham to loosen up those funds. Got ‘em quickly, whenever we had a snag of any kind, I always felt very comfortable and free. We always had a nice mayoral chat. He was the Mayor of Minneapolis, I repeat, but he loved to talk about it. He enjoyed it so much. He said, “You’re as close to the people as you can get.” And he said, “I love it.” So um, we got along just great. But that’s how the funds became available for urban renewal. I don’t know if we hadn’t called how long you can sit and wait but because politically, I don’t know that our gentleman ever voted for Mr. Weaver. He was appointed by the way. But I don’t know whether our folks came along or not. I didn’t run that down. Jim Wise: Where, at what point (inaudible) Wense Grabarek: So the ’68, I’m interested in somebody complaining in ‘68 about urban renewal. You see. That, that, that needs some honest depth(?) to be applied to it. What are we talking about? See, you voted it in, you got it, you needed it, you wanted it, and it was the right thing to do. Where does a complaint come in about urban renewal being present? You had an opportunity to re-buy the property, after it was razed. They had first option to redo a, the owner, the prior owner. No one would do it. Took their money and did something else with it. But don’t blame somebody for that inaction. So to bring that subject up is, is, is again quite unfair to the America…to the Durham community. If we’re going to improve race relations in Durham or anywhere it’s got to be based on honesty and truth. We need to recognize if somebody does someone good, we have to have the magnanimity about us to recognize it. If there’s something wrong, we ought to have the fortitude and the character to face each other eye to eye. As I did many times on these various subjects. And put it in a very civilized, human level. What’s the best we can do as human beings to correct this problem that you and I have? And we start reaching each others conscience, and it can be done. If there’s anything I learned in the Civil Rights Era, is that just like we all have a mother, we all have a conscience. And the intellectual mind probes that conscience. I probe my own and you or anyone else, who disagrees with me has a right to probe mine. But let’s keep it at a level of civility and, and respect and appreciation for the dignity that we are born with and have a right to, to have pride in, and face our problems. Society is better than that. Much better. We have a lot more to offer. We’re inclined to debase society instead of building on the inherent dignity that we have.

00:30:22.130 - 00:33:35.310

Jim Wise: Well, why do you think it is that Hayti project and the Freeway that’s confused with it, why have they acquired this conventional wisdom as something that was imposed on the area? Some say, imposed and destroyed. Wense Grabarek: The answer to that if best given by them. I can only surmise. And my, I spent a lot of time on this. The, the feeling that the white community had anything to do with the progress of the black individual is not honored. We did everything, because we demonstrated and we marched and we had sit-ins. Everything happened because of that. That is, I hope you’ll allow me, somewhat naïve. Nothing changes because I push something, any changes. My march didn’t change it, it brought it to Grabarek’s attention. I measured the sincerity, and the seriousness that the black community attached to the matter of Civil Rights and I agree with them. There’s no question about it. The dignity of man is first on my list. I respect myself and I want everyone else to have self respect for themselves. Now um, and if somebody changes something don’t erase it from history. The Durham community, the white community had to change. And it changed voluntarily. How wonderful. Voluntarily in approximately six weeks. A Southern community voluntarily desegregated…voluntarily. More than a year, then you had your first Civil Rights Act. I had a call from Congressman Sam Gibbons I think his name was, he was from Florida. He said, “Congress follows it does not lead. And what you and your community have done is exactly what we need to see and hear. This emboldens us, who are in agreement with you, that everyone has equal rights and should be free in this country. So that’s what Durham did. Now, we don’t want to talk about it everyday. We don’t have to feel like we are beholden to anybody, but history requires that that momentary event of enlightenment in Durham be recorded and honored. Not honored, but recognized and taken from there. Jim Wise: Desegregation in the summer of 1963? Wense Grabarek: Yes, that’s right. But that’s when it happened. And you won’t find anything anywhere on the subject. If you look at the banners they put up to memorialize their civil rights, it’s always about somebody in a March, in a picture at the Howard Johnsons. And that happened, but in ’63 Durham said, this ain’t right, the whole community. And we had Klansmen, we had the White’s Citizen Council, we had the very violent black activists, we had the Committee on Negro Affairs and the moderates in between. And we did that, a southern community, voluntarily. And it held. No one violated it. Now that, that’s an event. And you don’t have to overemphasize it or overstate it. But if you put upon your mind that the white person deserves no credit for our advances in this country, we will never improve race relations. Never. If we’re first class citizens, if we’re equal, we’re going to treat each other as equal and we’re going to be cognizant of those facts that move history along in a constructive way. And when this city measured its heart and its conscience at that time, in that enlightened way, it would be much more progressive, much more respectable if all parties were recognized. No one wants individual credit, I’m talking about the community of Durham. It’s not Grabarek, it’s not, there are other individuals, like Harvey Rape played a tremendous role. Floyd McKissick was terrific in coordinating the position of the blacks for a while there, we were talking in various groups. It’s almost impossible to render a resolution to twelve different voices, voicing twelve different things. But give him credit, he was able to compact their grievances in such a way that we were discussing one at a time. And we’d argue, yes, of course we would. We’d differ, of course we would, but in the end, after I repeat probing each other’s conscience, he recognized that maybe the Mayor is a pretty reasonable man and I was giving him credit for being a reasoned individual interested, interested in improving, improving race relations. Not in perpetuating them, as we do now, under the current situation where we fail to recognize what took place. Now that’s a very personal assessment of what I think it is and I may be wrong, and I’ll accept that if I am. But to answer your question, there is no good reason, as I respect every human being and value every human being, that if they would just recognize history as it occurred, as it occurred, and go from there, build on it, so that one day, yes, we will shake hands and respect each other and feel like we’re equals. And really to accept our failures and just as anxious however to recognize good. We’re not recognizing good. And people will write books about this subject. I’ve read some and they’re wrong. There’s a young lady that received a doctorate degree from Duke University and I would rather not repeat what she said. It’s so wrong. But the point is that the next generation reads that book and what do we have? Hatred being spread over another generation. How does that bring us together? We have to have a target. If we’re interested in race relations, improved race relations we have to make our contribution. We can’t just keep spreading hate and hate and that’s what we’re doing today, I hate to say it. But that’s where a good part of our citizenry is. So, whatever came up in ’68 against the urban renewal is a baseless, it is absent of historical fact, completely in my opinion and I was there. I am willing to listen to anyone. I’d be perfectly happy to debate it, discuss it with anyone, if it will have the purpose of improving our relationship. I think we need to stop the spread of hatred and erasing history and misrepresenting fact to our current and subsequent generations. That won’t do it. That won’t do it. And a lot of good white people in Durham at that time made tremendous sacrifices on this subject. I know it. I know it. But they did it, and it was for the human good, and that’s where I’d like to put everybody. What is the human good that you and I can accomplish here, today.

00:38:58.190 - 00:39:08.930

Jim Wise: Well I think that is a good note for us to close on. Wense Grabarek: Good, thank you. Jim Wise: And again thank you very much. Wense Grabarek: Well thank you and I want to add something to what you said earlier. The problem and you mentioned what’s developing down there and…this is what’s wrong. This was Councilman Howard Clement said the financial arraignment. This is why they were giving money to these people for this prior development.

00:39:27.590 - 00:41:12.190

(inaudible) was an attempt to “remedy past wrongs from the Durham Freeway being built through the once stable Hayti black business community.” That’s what they said. And so he’s on the Council. The Council is voting whether to give that Hayti Development money because somebody treated them wrong. No one treated…what happened is what they wanted. They were the only reason it happened. See and yet this is, this is the (inaudible). See what happens when you do something wrong and he’s getting money. The City of Durham is being defrauded under these circumstances. They passed money to the Hayti Heritage and all the different loans and so on. And now it’s going to have some more of it. This is behind it. They treated us wrong back them and we’re just making it up. How can you respect that position? How can races get closer together knowing that that’s the mentality? We need to get current. We need to sharpen up our intellect on these things. We have to focus in on what are we really doing by misrepresenting. Is this the truth? And how can I live, I don’t know how you live with it? I couldn’t. But that’s what some of our people are living with, and promoting and putting the Durham public at a disadvantage from the money standpoint. Absolute fraudulent. That’s a strong word but that what belongs. Jim Wise: Thank you sir. Wense Grabarek: No problem. End of interview.