Interview With Jane T. Ryan

So it's on now. It's on. Yeah, try it off to push, push the right there, the square. No, like the stop button right here. Yeah, let me stop. But it was just bad as I said, woman. But I describe, but I did it, I was being

really politically correct. I met a black lady, an old lady and I called her lady. Normally I don't call women ladies like her women for a good reason because there was a time in the south at least. And maybe in other places too where you didn't

call female blacks lady. I mean, so I really, you know, I thought, well, I'll show him I'm gonna call a lady. But anyway, excuse me? OK. Are you one of the people in the? Yeah, I'm this person here was in 1965 and these are two priests.

This young man is from Saint Kitts and a Catholic priest. And this woman is also from the, we both belong to the Democratic Women's Club and that's, that's not why I was there. But because I've been involved with in um with Doctor King for years, I

mean, I, I was, I went to meetings and, um, well, there were black churches and, uh, based on the black churches in Columbus and Georgia. I mean, you know, I started Glenn really? I already started with my mother. Oh, I grew up and my parents are

both southerners and so am I obviously. And, um, I was brought up by very enlightened parents and my mother was so enlightened that if I use anything, a derogatory term, but any group of people, I, um, got a lecture and so I didn't do it. And

that started me on the way because she gave me, well, it was sort of a noble, noble idea that, you know, to whom much is given much is expected. That was gen generally where she was coming from. But she was a good Christian too. She was

a Catholic as I am. And, um, so I had that advantage of growing up in a home like that. Where are you from? I'm from Charleston, South Carolina originally. It's my hometown still is as far as I'm concerned. I don't mean to interrupt, but I can

tell that you two, you're gonna be just fine without the professor lurking here. Yeah, we just shouldn't get rid of you. Exactly. And, and all I'll say is I hope you'll see everything on your mind and I hope that you'll ask everything on your mind. Please

feel free just because I'm old and dis labeled doesn't mean you can't whack it to me and, and if you feel like you need assistance, if she gets, yeah, I'll try to behave and I won't hit anybody when you see Jackie next. Tell her Jane Ryan.

I certainly will. Yeah, I email her every few days. I'll tell her Jane Ryan and I certainly will. She, she's on leave. Well, there has been and she's up in, I always go every February. I have dinner with Bill Bonney who's a Southern historian and it's

a birthday and we have um dinner, a bunch of historians and me. Yeah, I used to be married and see me. I'll leave the two of you. Ok. Pleasure to meet you. I'm sorry, dog. As I say, I get carried away, I would like to get,

well, there's a narrative about it. And um what happened was, again, I had been very involved in civil rights for a long time in Georgia and everywhere I lived. And then I moved to Wilmet Illinois and became involved with the Wilmet Human Relations Commission, the Committee.

And um we got up a bus of people, bus load and went down to, to uh s in Montgomery. And I had, at that time, I had, I think I had, I had 67 kids, which I still have. But I mean, they were, I still had

that and I remember my husband, I said this is something I have to do. And he said, all right, if you have to do it, go do it, which is really probably very good of him to do. But anyway, so I went down and um when

we got there, I was on the bus with these two young men. I happened to be Catholic and go to the Catholic priest and we happen to be walking together during the march. And now being on the march was very interesting because first of all, I'm

a southern ar can, I was in the cradle of the confederacy in Montgomery. And although I knew there were a lot of people that felt like I did white, but they never said much about it. They were intimidated and I guess I never was intimidated by

things because of my mother in my religion and everything else. And, um, so I, you know, I was arguing, I knew I understood that and as we walked along, apparently they had called out Alabama National Guard and to protect us. Well, nothing happened. At least then

there were things that happened, but not on the march. And, um, but going down, they taught us how to protect ourselves. You know, we're putting your hand over your head and putting your head down all that. So we did that. But, um, I sat right next

to a man who's, um, written a lot of books, his wife that is and Scott. I know he wrote a book about, oh, I can't see what happens when you get older. You can't remember names. But his wife was very nice. But anyway, we got down,

then they put us in, you know, and got him and lined up and I happen to be with these two young men and this woman. And, but, yeah, one of those young men goes is black and he was from Saint Kitts. Really nice fellow. They both

were very nice young men. And, um, as we walked along the streets of Montgomery, uh, people generally ignored us except for what I think of as the poorer whites and they were sort of overwhelmed over owned by us. They don't understand it because this is, they

knew that the only people they could really look down on were the blacks. And as you know, they've been played off against them. And, um, so they were there and some of them were yelling at us. But all of a sudden somebody waved at me a

little white person and I thought, oh, there's somebody being friendly. It was a child because she was too young to have any prejudice. And then as we passed this building that we must have been a governmental building or something, there were all these men, white men

standing up there and it was like we went a parade and they were us. And because Doctor King was obviously there, thank God he was, I'd heard him speak so many times and been in numerous marches and read his books saying he gave me one of

his book and his autograph that I gave to one of my daughters. I don't have it anymore. But that's fine. I don't. But anyway, because he spoke and it was inspiring as he always was. And it was absolutely a remarkable feeling because it almost felt like

a culmination because I had been in this Will Matt Human Relations Committee and we had, I lived in Willmatt. Well, there wasn't a black person that lived in Willmatt. So, of course, they got the bright idea that IOT in blacks basically from the University of Chicago

area. And so they came up and we'd have these afternoon talks probably Sunday afternoon. Well, what would happen is the whites, there were northerners and they don't know how to relate to blacks and they sat there and talk about the movement. Well, I sat there and

talked to people about how your kids. Do you have any kids? Did you go to school? What's going on with you? I mean, what do you like to do? I mean, yeah, I was talking to him like a human being and yeah, well, that's, you know,

that makes sense to me. I'm not gonna say, well, we're losing in the movement. I mean, come on, you know, and, um, so I was used to that, you know, and uh, but I also felt very committed to this for many reasons. Again, it was basically

for my sense of fair play. It wasn't right. There's justice is concerned. I, um, I had a great religious belief too. I just, I'm Catholic and I was brought up to believe that all of us are the same equal with God's Children. Everybody. And we're all

brothers and sisters, which makes you my sister, you know, and all the way. But I'm old enough to be a great grandmother. But, um, so, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't strange for me to be there at all. It felt good and people did get hurt.

There was a woman that was down there like I, she was a housewife, like I was from Michigan, I think, and she happened to be somewhere doing all this going on before, after the March and she was riding with a young black man. Well, apparently some

people saw it and didn't like it. So they shot her. She died. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, things did happen, but the, the National Guard did a good job in keeping all. And I think that the, the people have been taught just ignore us, which is

very clever. And they did basically. So that was my story of the March. Ok, of interest. How did you feel when you went back home? I felt, I felt wonderful because I, I knew the people I knew up there felt like I did. So I wasn't

alone and my family felt like I did. My Children were read that way. So I didn't feel isolated at all. You know, that was good. Now, there have been times in my life when I've lived places and felt very isolated for obvious reasons. But, you know,

anytime you take some stand that's not popular, I mean, you know, Jesus did that, I mean, you get isolated and so did king, I mean, you don't do it just because of that, you do it because you, you think it's right. So that's why OK? One

of the things I found interesting and if you read the narrative I wrote was the language in 1965 that I used was very different as I told you than I would now. And I do remember a AAA black woman and I call lady because I told

you that earlier. Why? And she came up to me to thank me for being there. I said, ma'am, I said I'm going back, you're gonna be here. OK? And I know that and I love you and I hope things work out because I did. And I

just felt awful because you know, you felt like, well, I'm coming in and being this rescue and then leaving the people there to pick up the mess, which is basically what happened. However, Doctor King started a movement and it did cause waves as you know, it

was a move on the shaker. God love me. OK? Why did you see this particular? Well, that was the only one I had somebody had taken that picture and gave me a copy and so I saved it and I had copies made for my seven kids

and some of my very close friends, all my friends are much younger than I am. And I figured maybe they'd like it for their archives or scare the cats or dogs or something. But anyway, so that's, that's why I said it was important to me and

I, you know, I still have the ridge line at home, which is a lot bigger than that. Obviously, why did you feel the need to come today to? Well, I saw it in the paper and I figured this is a piece of history and I mean,

I'm, I'm a 78 I'll be 78 on the 20th of this month and I'm not gonna be around here forever. And somehow I don't think I'm gonna be able to do this when I get to heaven or hell, where I'm going and have an interview. So

I just thought maybe we need to get it down somewhere because it is history. It's part of history. Do you feel like after the civil rights movement things have changed a lot? Well, I think they're better and more, I think certainly there have been strides. I

mean, compared to what they were when I was growing up. And, uh, in fact, I remember when I was a child, seeing a policeman beat up, a little boy, a little black boy with his Billy Club. And because I was furious, I was only about seven,

I went running up there to make the policeman stop. So I always had that sense of, you know, what was right and what was wrong and that was wrong to me. And um, so, you know, it just was a combination for me. But what's happened since

then is I think, thank God they are. Certainly the Voting Rights Act has made a big difference and the blacks are doing just what the Irish did when they came to this country, as immigrants, they vote in a block and that's how you get power now.

Ultimately, people are gonna figure, well, I'm not voting in a block. I wanna vote the way I wanna vote just, it's Irish to have, but it takes time for that to happen. So I think things have changed for the better that way. Unfortunately, I think that

I know when I was involved in the civil rights movement, we were literally asked that is as whites to get out and let clean up our own act and leave us alone. Yeah. And that was hurtful, but I understand it. OK, I understood it. And I

went to Black University. I'm a graduate of North Carolina Central University and I got an undergraduate degree in health ed there and then I went back and got two graduate degrees. So I'm what's known as a third degree Eagle. So you know, and I've always worked

with blacks. I mean, there's some of them been my boss, some of them, I've been their boss and some of them have just been my colleagues, you know, so it's never been a problem for me. And I thank God, you know, that I had that kind

of, I mean, when I went to Central, this is 1970. When I first went there, I was the only white student on campus except the nurses that came in this cubby from Watts. And one of my professors asked me one day, he said, um, are you

from Watts? I said, Mr Nixon, you're just saying that because I'm white, I'm not, I'm a health and education major and I chose to come here and, but anyway, and um, so it was a good experience. I, in fact, I, I was 45 and I took

physical ed because I didn't want to be different from anybody. I wanna take advantage of my age. So because I got kicked around playing hockey and everything. But that was, I told my classmates, look, I don't mind this black and white, but I don't want any

black and white and blue. OK. I don't want to be kicked blue, but we got along fine. I did meet a young woman from Illinois who was an exchange student and she was in my, one of my psychology classes. I think I may have been a

sophomore and um you know, I saw her later the next year and I said, well, how did you se that the end of that year? And I said, how did your semester go? And she's not good at all? I said, I said what? And she said,

well, I'm young, I'm a blonde. I got blue eyes and the co EDS didn't like me being here and I felt very uncomfortable and I was from Illinois. I never, I mean, I didn't have any experience. And she said, how about you? And I said, well,

you know, I grew up in the South. I mean, there was no really, no problem. I love Flints. I loved some of my professors, some of them I did. But you do anyway. And, um, but my head of my department, Doctor Howard Fitz is just a

prince, wonderful man. And I mean, I always call him Doctor Fitz until I graduated and I call him Howard. But he's, uh, he's still one of my best friends. So, you know, I've had some good experiences. I've been very well. What happened was I got a

divorce. I was living in Charleston, South Carolina. I was a mother of seven kids and my ex-husband is a turned up, I've been married twice. Um, he finagled it so I couldn't have my Children. Ok, for whatever reason, but that happened. But IW what I did

was I knew I was working in a health one of these, uh, it was a LA, I didn't know it was OEO and they had these health facilities and one of them was in the, in what? Really a ghetto in Charleston, a black black neighborhood and

poor, very poor on Nassau street. And I worked there and um, Doctor Fitz, who was my boss. I mean, no, he wasn't Fitz Anderson. I'm sorry, Doctor Anderson, Leroy Anderson. He was a black man. He taught at um South Carolina State and he, um, was very

kind and good to me and he knew I wasn't a racist. And so I got along fine with him and all my class. I mean, all my work mates, most of whom were black and one of them when I, we got these grants from the OEO

and the labor department because I didn't have any money. And, um, we could go back to college or graduate school because I hadn't even been to college. But we had to either be a nurse or a health educator. Well, at that time, I didn't know you

could be a psychiatric nurse and all that other stuff and I could envision myself doing bed plans and that didn't appeal to me. So I said I'll be a health educator. I don't know what in the world it is, but that's what I'll do. And one

of my class, I mean, none of my work mates, a young black woman said to me, well, why don't you go to North Carolina, Central and North Carolina College. That's where she had gone because there was no undergraduate program at that time in South Carolina. And

that's where I were. I chosen to go because I, me and my kids were so I came up and talked to Doctor Fitz and I loved him and he was very kind to me. And I thought, well, listen, so I'm going here and what I did

was every weekend I drove to Charleston so my kids, but uh it was tough, but I love going there and I was first on a graduate because I, I got to take on my classmates. They said, how come you get all these A's Jane? I said

because this is my last chance. Ok, I'm not young like guys and I don't have to go to parties and all that stuff. So that's why I'm just studying a lot more, but it was wonderful. No, no, no. I think probably because of my own experiences

in the past, including this one. And also because I really grew up in the south and I grew up with a very wonderful parents, a very good home. Well, that was, and that kind of behavior was not accepted. Now it took folks a while to get

used to me and I, I understood that. I mean, I sense to know that. In fact, I remember one young man, he was so cute. When um when was it when Nixon got elected and he came up to me and he said, I guess you're happy.

And I said, no, I'm not happy. He said, but you aren't you white? You like her? I said, no, I'm not for Nixon. I didn't vote for Nixon. But you know, that, that was understandable. He had stereotyped me with like so many white, stereotype, blacks and

some blacks do like the whites and it's easy to do that, you know that. I mean, you just do it, you know. Yeah, exactly. So that's why I went to. OK, so you obviously enjoyed the experience of. It was wonderful. I mean, I love the, I

love my classmates. I love, generally love my professors. Few of, I didn't care a thing about it, but most of them I do and they were black and white. I mean, I have a, you know, different, uh, uh race, uh teachers, professors and I took some

really good classes and, um, I think th I enjoyed it. I learned a lot mostly because I was so dedicated and like a sponge I wanted to learn and now at last I could put things into context because I've read all my life. My mother kind

of graduated from college. My whole family did. But I got married when I was 16. It was World War Two. You know. So, yeah. And we moved all over the country and I had seven kids. So I never got a chance. To go. So, this was

like, wow, it was wonderful. Do you feel like you've, uh, lost any friends or gained any friends from going there or from being at the civil rights movement? I, you know, I can't, well, I think people in Columbus, Georgia, the people, my, my friends and frankly,

they were whites mostly. I mean, I had a few black friends, well, most of them are white and they didn't understand it. I mean, they really didn't, but they were relatively tolerant to me because they knew that I had always been somebody that heard a different

drama and I was listen to the drama because I had many of them. But, uh, blacks and whites, I remember some jackass man once said to me. Well, you know, God made black birds and, and blue birds and they're not supposed to mix. And I said,

what's that got to do with human beings? I mean, you know, so I'd always argued for that. So I don't think they would at least bit surprised that I'd go. No. You think that's because you had, you surrounded yourself with friends? Well, I, well, I think

I would be open to anybody because I think that's the way I was read. It's called moral courage. It's a lot to do with my mother. Frankly, I think more my mother, daddy was sort of went along with whatever mother said about stuff and mother was

a strong, that way. It's remarkable. Fuck a lot of people, those ideas come from their parents. Well, often times they do, like all my kids, I mean, none of them are racist. I mean, my God, they, you know, there's no way they could be. I mean,

they wouldn't, they wouldn't work for them because of the way they were read. And her father was not a racist either. Actually, he wasn't an activist like I've always been, but he was not a racist. Did you ever try to convince people who are just who

maybe agreed but didn't really get involved. Did you ever try to convince them to get? No, I, no, I never did that. I never tried to make activists with people, but I certainly tried to con them. Ok, because I had a great sense of people's boundaries

and yeah, and, but I would certainly tell him when I, you know, I thought and hope maybe some of that would make him think at least, you know, is there any one person who stands out in your mind? Well, co Doctor King obviously, I mean, you

know, that was my hero. He was my hero. And there were others too. I mean, I like Malcolm X. I heard Malcolm, I, I heard uh Malcolm X one time debate in Chi in Chicago with Louis L Max and he had just come back from Mecca

and realized, oh my God, there were white people there too. And he had changed his ideas about that. And I thought he was remarkable because he was able to evolve. It makes some hard to do, you know. But he was able to. So I had a

lot of heroes and I certainly like, uh, I was at Lewis as in the civil rights movement. That's now a congressman, Georgia John, is it? Yeah, black man. He was one of King's right hand man. And so, yeah, I had a lot of heroes and then

when we had the, we had the hos hospital strike in Charleston and virtually all the workers that were striking were black because they were underpaid and everything, you know, housekeepers and, you know, that type thing. And I was working at that time for the federal government,

believe it or not. I was working in a birth control clinic as a counselor and um which was, took a lot out of me. I mean, I'd already had seven kids and now I became an anti fertility artist. But anyway, and um, but when I, I

had to cross the picket line and I, you know, I was a federal employee, I wasn't the same and they didn't. I know. Well, I explained it to him. I said, look, I, I'm sorry, I mean, if I could be, I'd be right out here with

y'all. And another thing I did that was fun. These women in the um clinic, we go out to the clinic and most of the clients. Well, all of them are poor, but many of them are black and they call them by their first name. Well, I

went not down, it says Mrs Jones, Mrs Brown. Mrs. And I thought this is my way of fighting that foolishness. So, I mean, you know, I hate that sort of thing. I mean, you don't call a person, at least in those days you didn't call a

person by your first name until you got to know them. And that was fine. In fact, I think some of that's good now, but it doesn't happen now unless somebody asked you, like, I did ask, call me Jane, it's fine. But just to assume, well, she's

Jane, you know. And no, not unless somebody says I'm Jane and I'd like you to call me now. But that was fun. I had, I was subversive. So. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I was, enjoyed doing what I thought was right, because that's basically what it was doing,

what I'd been taught to do. Listen to my mama fitness. Is there any other way that you were involved in the movement that you like to talk about? Well, you know, um, no, frankly I think, I think I've covered generally. 01 other thing that happened, it

was really kind of amusing. It shows you how hypocritical people could be. I worked in business. I mean, I lived in W Mead Illinois, which is a Lily light white suburb and one of the things that happened. The Roman Human Relations Committee got the bright idea

that they try to integrate it by going to talk to realtors. They used to send me because I had a southern accent and I sound like Magnolia. And I, so I'd go because they thought I would disarm these realtors. Well, of course it did. And what

I do is talk to them about not only the fact injustice, but economically was stupid because that would appeal to them. So I did that, you know, and um, so I did, you know, a lot of little things like that, but I did have seven kids.

I had to take care of. And um, and I said, I'm sure the other things are, I can't offer him. I can't think of any. Ok. Do you think that Durham specifically has changed a lot? Well, I am not, I've been in Durham for 33 years.

This was a long time. I came out to go to school in 70 never, they never got rid of me. And, um I do find that uh the race situation in Durham is sad because it's so polarized and although I certainly understand reasons for this, I

wish it worked that way. I really do. I mean, because it's my idea is to try to work together and I think it's, it's just difficult because of the way things are. And I, I find that sad here, the situation here is not that good. No,

I don't think it is and I mean, you know, you can understand reason why, but that didn't mean you think it's ok? Ok. Is there anything else you'd like to do? No, just to thank you for this opportunity to meet you. And, uh, I, I am

so glad that you're studying and doing this. And are you planning to be an oral historian or what? No, but it's good. Well, it's good to learn to interview because I know how to interview too. I was a counselor and it's a, it's a real odd.